Lauer ~ The Sky Don't Lie

Greg Lauer has a great article (very long) over on his site and it is better read there ~ I post it here in its entirety as a repeater in case things go down.

http://www.alittlestrength.com/articles/2017/1703-sky-dont-lie.htm

The Sky Don't Lie

Last year, I wrote an article about what has become known as the Revelation 12 sign, or the first of two signs described by the apostle John in Revelation 12:1–5. (For the remainder of this article, I will refer to this as the REV12 sign.) In that article, I explore in some degree of detail why I am utterly convinced this passage of Scripture not only gives us a clear picture of the pre-tribulation Rapture, but also how the REV12 sign will be fulfilled with stunning precision on September 23 of this year.
For the last several years, a dedicated, enthusiastic, and growing core group of believers have taken to the streets, in a manner of speaking, to spread the word of this upcoming prophetic fulfillment through various means and media (and I consider myself a humble, fledgling member of their ranks). Although this passage of Scripture is absolutely a picture of the pre-tribulation Rapture, the great majority of these people are not attempting to set dates and as a general rule are not running around shouting:
"The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The Rapture's gonna happen on September 23! It's a Bible lock!"
And those who recklessly do so are likely to be gently admonished by others to knock it off.
Most of these people are simply sharing information concerning what they see as a major prophetic fulfillment, and are compelled to let others know that even though September 23, 2017 may well not be the exact date of the Rapture, it is clearly a sign to those who are obeying Christ's command to watch and wait expectantly that time is indeed getting short for the body of Christ. Their goal is simply to share what they have been shown in order to encourage those in the Church who have ears to hear.
Unfortunately, however, it seems that not everyone in the Church has that kind of ears. To the surprise of no one, the detractors have come out in droves, decrying the REV12 sign of 9/23/2017 as rank speculation that is leading the Church off on yet another wild, apocalyptic goose chase, and as such is something that sorely needs to be exposed and debunked like all the other hysterical last-days lunacy that has preceded it.
I have a news flash for these people:
The sky don't lie.
One of the better-known individuals among these detractors is a best-selling author who regularly appears on Christian television talk shows and who has published several popular books in the field of Bible prophecy and end-time speculation. Most of his ideas are framed in the context of a post-trib or pre-wrath Rapture, which explains his adamant rejection of the REV12 sign because a proper interpretation of it veritably screams "pre-trib." However, it was two YouTube videos he posted claiming to "debunk" the REV12 sign that really motivated me to write this article. Well, maybe "motivated me" is too weak—let's go with "got me fired up."
I actually struggled with the decision to identify him by name or not. I finally decided not to, although a handful of knowledgeable people reading this article may know to whom I am referring. So if you know, that's fine—if you don't, that's fine, too. I don't want to launch what might be construed as a personal attack against another believer—and besides, it doesn't actually matter that much because he is not the only one. This individual is by no means the only person out there saying some the things I am going to deal with in this article, so there's nothing to be gained by naming names.
First, a brief recap of the scenario we are dealing with so everyone is up to speed and on the same page:
In Revelation 12, the apostle John describes two signs that appear. The first is described in verses 1–2:
¹A great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. ²She was with child. She cried out in pain, laboring to give birth.
³Another sign was seen in heaven. Behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven crowns. ⁴His tail drew one third of the stars of the sky, and threw them to the earth. The dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.
⁵She gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. Her child was caught up to God, and to his throne.
(Revelation 12:1–5 / emphasis added)
It is quite possible that there are multiple levels of interpretation of the sign. For example, from a historical/individual perspective, the woman could be seen as Mary, the baby as Jesus, and the dragon as King Herod, who desperately tried to kill all male babies under the age of two in a vain effort to eliminate Israel's prophesied Messiah.
It is quite clear to most Bible scholars, however, that there is also an eschatological level of interpretation, that being that the woman represents Israel, the child represents the body of Christ (not just Christ Himself, a distinction I will have more to say about later), and the dragon is Satan's system, which will include the kingdom of the Antichrist during the Tribulation. As such, verse 5 in which the child is "caught up" to heaven clearly represents the Rapture. And since the Tribulation clearly follows this sign, it paints a picture of a pre-tribulation Rapture.
The constellation Virgo has always been associated with the woman in this sign, and the sun and moon pass through Virgo on a regular basis. However, on September 23, 2017 (which falls immediately following the Feast of Trumpets this year), something will occur that is extraordinarily unusual. As a matter of fact, nothing quite like it has happened in the last several millennia, and won't happen again for several more.
On that date, the moon will be at Virgo's feet, the sun will be over her shoulder "clothing" her (nothing unusual there), but also the nine stars of Leo, which are always directly above Virgo's head, will be joined by the planets Mercury, Venus and Mars to complete Virgo's crown of 12 stars (the Bible doesn't make the distinction between stars and planets).
Not only that, but another aspect of the REV12 sign is the fact that the woman is with child (v. 2). The planet Jupiter, the king planet and the planet commonly associated with Christ (or in this case the body of Christ), will be in the "womb" of Virgo for the normal length of a human pregnancy during the time period preceding September 23, 2017. This is the male child—the body of Christ—and the male child will be in the process of exiting the "womb" of Virgo at about the same time as the alignment of the woman's crown on September 23.
In other words, the REV12 sign will be perfectly fulfilled on September 23, 2017, and in a manner that is stunningly clear and undeniable.
This upcoming fufillment of the REV12 sign has been popularized via YouTube primarily by Scottie Clarke since about 2011, although numerous people have gotten involved with it in the past couple of years, such as those at websites like www.unsealed.org and others who have written articles about it on their own little websites (like this one character I know).

But as I said, the naysayers have come out in full force, as is typically the case for anything pertaining to what has become one of the most mocked and reviled doctrines in the Church today: the pre-tribulation Rapture.
So, just what are these ideas that this celebrity author and others are promulgating? I narrowed it down to a list of seven of the most popular "rebuttals" being thrown out by not only this celebrity author, but many other like-minded individuals on the Internet who scoff at the idea that the upcoming alignment on September 23, 2017 is of any biblical significance.
In this article, I want to examine why these rebuttals of the REV12 sign are some of the flimsiest attacks I've ever seen leveled at the efforts of students of the Bible who are just doing their job, and why not a single one stands up to biblical scrutiny. They are as follows:
1. The 12 stars in the woman's crown have always been there.
2. The child being born in verse 5 is Christ, not the Church.
3. The rest of Revelation 12 applies to the end times, but verses 1–5 don't.
4. Virgo's crown cannot "borrow" stars from another constellation.
5. In verse 17, the dragon makes war with the Church—so it can't be raptured in verse 5.
6. Rosh Hashanah isn't biblical...so neither is the REV12 sign.
7. The REV12 sign is just more apocalyptic sensationalism.
Some of these attacks are so weak and silly I almost hate to waste my time with them, but there are so many people out there—even celebrity authors who should know better—coming against the fulfillment of God's Word with this junk that I feel it simply has to be done.
1. This so-called "rare" stellar/planetary alignment that will occur on September 23, 2017 is not the fulfillment of Revelation 12:1 in any way whatsoever, because the 12 stars of the woman's crown have always been there! According to serious scholars like Anatoly Fomenko, Virgo always has a crown of 12 stars, so this 9/23/2017 "fulfillment" thing is just a bunch of apocalyptic hooey.
This is one of the key ideas being put out there by critics of the REV12 sign, and so it's the first one I want to dismantle. The critics will say things like...
"You know, these YooToob prophets are saying how unbelievably rare this sign is, like it's never happened before and will never happen again and so it must be super prophetic and yada yada yada. Like the strength of the sign is its rarity. Ooh, it's s-o-o rare...it just has to mean something!"
Then they will launch into something about the minor constellation Coma Berenices (which is not above Virgo's head in the first place) and the Virgo Cluster, and how there have been scholars in the past who have identified a ring of 12 stars above Virgo, and so the REV12 sign is a bunch of well-intentioned but overhyped hysteria over nothing.
"Calm down, folks...move along...nothing to see here."
What they don't tell you is that there are dozens of visible stars in the general area above Virgo, and there always have been. And yes, there have been various men in the past who were aware of the sign mentioned in Revelation 12:1, and as a result looked above Virgo and whaddya know—they picked out 12 possible candidates for the woman's crown and said...
"Ah ha! There we go—a crown of 12 stars, just like the Bible says!"
And there is nothing inherently wrong with that. Many of these men were no doubt good men who loved God, and only meant to honor His Word. After all, we operate with the light God's gives us, and we frequently don't know exactly what God has in mind, or how any prophecy will ultimately play out.
The point is that there is no conceivable way they could have guessed that the actual fulfillment of the REV12 sign would instead turn out to involve three planets that happen to converge above Virgo on September 23, 2017.
There are countless ways you can pick out 12 stars above Virgo—from the Virgo Cluster or whatever—and call them the "crown." That's easy, and so it seems a bit shaky to me to claim that's the final fulfillment of Revelation 12:1. That doesn't qualify as any kind of sign, much less a "great sign." On the other hand, the historic alignment that comes together on September 23, 2017 is stunningly clear and attention-grabbing—just like a biblical sign should be and typically is. Now that qualifies as a "great sign."
But there's more. I don't want to settle for merely pointing out how lame this rebuttal is (and "lame" is an understatement)—I want to show you from Scripture why it doesn't hold a molecule of water.
I checked every English translation of the Bible I could find, and the opening phrase of Revelation 12:1 is variously rendered as follows:
• (Then, Next) a great sign appeared in heaven...
• Then I witnessed in heaven an event of great significance...
• And a great sign (marvel, wonder, portent, symbol) was seen in heaven...
• And there appeared a great sign (wonder) in heaven...
• A spectacular sign appeared in the sky...
• And a mega sign appears in the heavens...
The Greek word used in the original text is a form of horao (appeared, was seen), and this word is used in a number of other verses. For example:
³Behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them talking with him.
(Matthew 17:3 / emphasis added)

This was at the Transfiguration, when Jesus took on His glorified form and appeared to several of His disciples with Moses and Elijah. First Moses and Elijah were not there, and then they were.
¹¹An angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
(Luke 1:11 / emphasis added)
While a priest named Zechariah was burning incense in the temple, the angel Gabriel appeared to him to tell him that his wife Elizabeth would bear a son, and to name him John (i.e., John the Baptist). First Gabriel was not there, and then he was.
³For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, ⁴that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, ⁵and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ⁶Then he appeared to over five hundred brothers at once, most of whom remain until now, but some have also fallen asleep. ⁷Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, ⁸and last of all, as to the child born at the wrong time, he appeared to me also.
(1 Corinthians 15:3–8 / emphasis added)
After the Resurrection, Christ appeared to His disciples and over 500 of His followers—and every single time first Jesus wasn't there, and then He was.
¹⁹God's temple that is in heaven was opened, and the ark of the Lord's covenant was seen in his temple. Lightnings, sounds, thunders, an earthquake, and great hail followed.
(Revelation 11:19 / emphasis added)
​​
John got to see the real ark of the covenant in heaven during his vision in the book of Revelation.​ Although it had been there the whole time, first John couldn't see it, and then he could.
In other words, the word horao works in much the same way as the English word "appear," which is how it's frequently translated. Think about it: If something "appears," either it isn't there and then it is, or you couldn't see it before and now you can. That's not too complicated, is it?
So, John says a great sign "horao-ed" or "appeared" in the heavens (with apologies to those who, unlike me, actually know Greek grammar). Based on the ways that the word horao is used, there are only two fundamental ways we can properly interpret this passage:
(a) First, the great sign wasn't there, and then it was.
(b) First, he couldn't see the great sign, and then he could.
I'm sorry, but that's what the word means. Now consider:
If the crown of 12 stars completing this sign were nothing more than 12 stars—chosen out of dozens of possibilities—that have been right up there shining in the big, black sky for all of humanity to see since time immemorial, then verse 1 suddenly doesn't make any sense! Then the sign didn't horao, so to speak. It didn't "appear." At no point was it not there, and then was there. And how could John have not been able to see it, and then suddenly be able to see it if those 12 stars have been right up there in the sky for all to see since the dawn of time, for crying out loud?
It makes no sense, and it contradicts the plain sense of Scripture. This argument self-destructs—it effectively shoots itself in the foot. It's an exegetical catch-22:
As soon as you argue that the "great sign" that "appeared" to John is something that has always been there, you immediately disqualify that from being what John was referring to.
I can't close this section without sharing this because it's just so comical, and reveals the heart of this celebrity author attacking the REV12 sign like few things I can think of.
In one of this celebrity author's YouTube videos, he is generally disparaging those who make YouTube videos (!) about the REV12 sign as if they were amateurish buffoons who cannot be taken seriously, and going on about how the woman's crown of 12 stars has always been there. In support of this claim, he makes much of the work of one Anatoly Fomenko, who is "clearly either Ukrainian or Russian" according the celebrity author (who clearly has no clue who Fomenko is).
He quotes Fomenko at length and even shows viewers a page from one of Fomenko's books which states: "Directly above the head of Virgo...we see the constellation of Coma Berenices or the Twelve Stars." The celebrity author treats this as a slam dunk that the REV12 sign is a load of malarkey, because here lies serious scholarly proof from a scholarly Ukrainian or Russian scholar who has written this scholarly tome brimming with serious scholarship that clearly states that Virgo has always had a crown of 12 stars. So there.

As anyone can see, Coma Berenices is not "directly above the head of Virgo." It's well off to the side, so if that's Virgo's "crown," apparently she has taken it off and is using it to play Frisbee with Ursa Major. Revelation 12:1 says the crown is above her head, and uh, this isn't. Saying it is may be stretching things to the breaking point, but that's not the comical part.
I did something this celebrity author apparently did not do: my homework. I did some digging about this Anatoly Fomenko, and as it turns out he's quite an interesting character (and FYI, Mr. Celebrity Author, he's Russian). Anatoly Fomenko (b. 1945) is a Russian mathematician and one of his primary works (the one the celebrity author quoted) is a seven-volume series entitled History: Science or Fiction?, and the celebrity author showed p. 157 from volume 1, from a chapter entitled "The New Dating of the Astronomical Horoscope as Described in the Apocalypse." Ooh, sounds pretty scholarly, huh?
Well, if our celebrity author had done just a teeny bit of checking, he never would have quoted Anatoly Fomenko in a thousand years. Fomenko is a leading proponent of the New Chronology, a pseudohistorical theory that claims all of written history only goes back to about AD 800. In other words, the events of the New Testament occurred during the Middle Ages. For example, Fomenko believes Jesus Christ was born in AD 1153 and was crucified in AD 1186.
Oops.
In other words, he's a nutjob "scholar" who thinks Jesus was born in the twelfth century. No one in the academic community takes his work seriously, and arguably the only reason anyone has ever even heard of Fomenko is because Russian chess champion Gary Kasparov actually believes and has promoted this foolishness.
So, a word to the wise: If you're going to attempt to refute the work of those who take the REV12 sign seriously, you might think twice before using the work of Anatoly Fomenko to do it.
This never fails to bring a smile to my face every time I think of it.
2. The child being born and caught up to heaven in verse 5 is obviously Christ, and not the Church. Thus, this passage has nothing to do with the Rapture.
I have already thoroughly covered this point in another article, so I'll just recap the highlights.
• Corporate symbolism. In the eschatological interpretation of the REV12 sign, the woman is Israel. The nation of Israel, a corporate body, not an individual. In verses 3–4, the dragon is more than just Satan—it is Satan's system, and during the Tribulation it will be the kingdom of the Antichrist. It's a corporate body, not an individual. Thus, it breaks the typology of the sign to assume the child is Christ alone. It is the body of Christ, or the Church—a corporate body, not an individual.
• Reference to Isaiah 66:7. In verse 5, John says the woman gave birth to a male child. However, he deliberately uses the neuter form of the adjective instead of the grammatically correct male form, and it's not a mistake because elsewhere he writes it correctly. John is making a conscious, deliberate reference to Isaiah 66:7, a prophecy about the birth of the nation of Israel. When the Old Testament was translated into Greek, the translators used the same neuter form in Isaiah 66:7 (in reference to Israel, a corporate body) that John used in Revelation 12:5 in reference the male child. Thus John is going out of his way to let us know that the son in verse 5 is a corporate body as well—the body of Christ, or the Church.
• Ruling with a rod of iron. In Psalm 2:7–9, God says the Messiah will rule with a rod of iron, a reference to the Millennial Kingdom on earth. However, in Revelation 2:26–27, Jesus extends this promise to the Church. Then in Revelation 19:14–15 we see Christ returning at the Second Coming with His Church in tow to fulfill this promise as a corporate body. It is this promise in Psalm 2:7–9 that is being quoted in verse 5, so it makes perfect sense to interpret the son as a corporate body, not just Christ alone. In other words, the Church will rule and reign with Christ with a rod of iron, and so we will share in the fulfillment of that prophecy.
• Where's the Resurrection? If the male child being born in verse 5 is Christ alone, it seems odd that there is no mention of the Resurrection, symbolic or otherwise. Not a word. Really? The quintessential point of the gospel; the heart and soul of everything Christ accomplished for us...not even alluded to? Skipped over? This glaring omission makes perfect sense, however, if the male child is the Church, who gets "caught up" to heaven in verse 5 (and the word is harpazo, same word used in 1 Thess. 4:17 to describe the Rapture). Christ wasn't "harpazo-ed"—He ascended, which is always described using different Greek words.
3. Although the rest of Revelation 12, such as the dragon (Satan) being cast down to earth and persecuting the woman (Israel) during the Great Tribulation, clearly have future eschatological interpretations, verses 1–5 have been fulfilled! This stuff about the woman having the moon at her feet, being clothed with the sun, being crowned with 12 stars​, and giving birth to the male child who is caught up to heaven to escape the dragon's clutches have all been historically fulfilled by the birth of Christ and the Ascension (see no. 2). That represents the final, complete fulfillment of that part of the passage, thus verses 1–5 have no eschatological interpretation whatsoever. So we can forget about this REV12 thing and move on.
So, all of Revelation 12 has end-time applications (which it certainly does)—all except the REV12 sign in verses 1–5, that is. I see. Well, gosh, how convenient is that?
Are you kidding me?! Virtually the entire book of Revelation has end-time applications! It is extremely typical throughout the Bible for any prophecy to have a near-term partial fulfillment to confirm the long-term final fulfillment, or for it to have multiple levels of interpretation. The REV12 sign is no different. It's just that many people refuse to acknowledge its obvious eschatological significance because it blows their own end-time positions out of the water and exposes them as being in error.
There is absolutely no biblical reason to assume that verses 1–5 have been totally fulfilled and don't apply to the end-times for some reason, but the rest of the chapter does. That's nothing more than desperate, disingenuous manipulation of Scripture.
4. Virgo's crown of 12 stars CANNOT be part of another constellation! Nine of those stars are in Leo, not Virgo, so they can't be considered part of Virgo's crown. Every astrotheologian knows you can't just "borrow" stars from another constellation like that, so this REV12 sign you guys are promoting is completely invalid.
The 12 stars can't be part of another constellation? Oh really? Sez who? Wow, every astrotheologian...I mean, who can argue with those guys, right?
It's basically impossible to refute such a silly, specious argument, and I have a sneaky feeling that's the entire point. You can refute an actual argument—but it can be surprisingly tough to refute manufactured nonsense, especially when it's couched as follows:
Every (expert of some type) knows (something that
tends to undermine your position), so (you're wrong)!
Every biologist knows that evolution is scientific fact, so the idea that God created man is an absurd myth!
Every astrophysicist knows the universe is 13.8 billion years old, so the biblical creation story is clearly a fairy tale for children!
Every competent Bible scholar knows the Church has to be "purified," so the Church will certainly go through the Tribulation!
This is a variation on a logical fallacy known as "appeal to authority" and it sounds all authoritative and everything, but doesn't hold a thimbleful of water from a logical standpoint.
And logic (or the lack thereof) notwithstanding—what about what the Bible actually says?
Not to belabor the obvious or anything, but verse 1 just says "on her head a crown of twelve stars." It doesn't say 12 stars that are not part of another constellation. It doesn't say 12 stars that are part of the Virgo Cluster or of a minor constellation like Coma Berenices.
It just says 12 stars. Period.
I'm sorry, but how is this unclear? Any additional requirements about what those stars can or cannot be must be added to Scripture, and add it they do. And again—nowhere does the Bible distinguish between stars and planets.
I've got a radical idea—why don't we just go by what God says in His Word?
5. Later in the chapter, the dragon is unsuccessful in destroying the woman, and in verse 17 we are told the dragon goes after "the rest of her seed" to make war with them. Well, obviously that's believers, right? The dragon is clearly going after the Church, who must still be on earth. So, it's impossible for anything in verses 1–5 to be a picture of the Rapture.
First of all, let's review what the verse actually says:
¹⁷The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep God's commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.
(Revelation 12:17 / emphasis added)
After Satan (through his man the Antichrist) is unsuccessful in his attempts to destroy Israel because she is protected by God (many believe in Petra, Jordan), his forces will go after "the rest of her seed." So the question is:
Who are "the rest of her seed"?
All those who trust Christ for their salvation, i.e., all those who are "in Christ" are the spiritual seed of Abraham:
²⁹If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise.
(Galatians 3:29)
Thus they are the spiritual seed of Israel, and thus the seed of the woman in this passage (and it's clear from context we're not talking about Abraham's physical seed). This obviously includes the Church, but is not limited to it. There are also Gentile Tribulation saints. These are people who will come to a saving faith in Christ after the Rapture and will have to go through the Tribulation because they are not part of the Church.
In this picture, however, the woman is Israel, or in this case the Jewish remnant. Although they have turned to God with all their hearts and have returned to their covenant relationship with the Father, they have not yet come to faith in Christ. So these people are not the spiritual seed of Abraham...YET! They will become that when they finally believe in their Messiah and call upon Him to save them at the climax of the Tribulation.
In other words, in the picture being painted here in Revelation 12...
Those being protected from Satan's attacks in the wilderness are not the seed of the woman—they are the woman.
Don't believe me? Well, what does the Word say?
¹³When the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. ¹⁴Two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, so that she might be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. ¹⁵The serpent spewed water out of his mouth after the woman like a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream. ¹⁶The earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon spewed out of his mouth. ¹⁷The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep God's commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.
(Revelation 12:13–17 / emphasis added)
• The dragon persecutes the woman—not her seed (v. 13).
• Two "wings" are given to the woman—not her seed (v. 14).
• The serpent spews water after the woman—not her seed (v. 15).
• The earth helps the woman—not her seed (v. 16).
• The dragon grows angry with the woman—not her seed (v. 17).
The woman. The woman. The woman. The woman. The woman.
I think I see a pattern developing. I'm beginning to get the idea that Satan, through his proxy the Antichrist, is going after the woman, which is Israel, but God protects her in the wilderness. So, he turns his attention away from the woman and goes off to make war against a group of what are evidently living believers in the gospel of Jesus Christ who dwell on earth, and so a group that qualifies as being referred to as "the seed of the woman."
But they aren't called the "seed of the woman."
They're called "the rest of her seed."
Now, follow along carefully.
The Greek word translated "rest" in verse 17 is a form of the word loipos (left, left behind, the remainder, the rest, the remnant, the others). The same word is used in many verses, and it means pretty much the same thing "the rest," "the others," etc. mean in English. For example:
¹¹Afterward the other virgins [i.e., the five foolish ones] also came, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us."
(Matthew 25:11 / emphasis & comments added)
¹³They went away and told it to the rest [i.e., the rest of the disciples]. They didn't believe them, either.
(Mark 16:13 / emphasis & comments added)
¹¹The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: "God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men [i.e., people besides righteous dudes like me], extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector."
(Luke 18:11 / emphasis & comments added)
¹³I saw, and I heard an eagle, flying in mid heaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe! Woe! Woe for those who dwell on the earth, because of the other voices of the trumpets of the three angels [i.e., the remaining three trumpet-sounding angels], who are yet to sound!"
(Revelation 8:13 / emphasis & comments added)
So, the dragon goes to make war with the woman's seed, a distinct portion of whom have already been removed or dispatched in some way.
In light of the preceding, here's the $64,000 question:
Q. Can "the rest of her seed" refer to the Church?
A. No! If it did, the Holy Spirit would have just said "her seed."
If the Church were still on earth and suffering through the Tribulation, there would be no logical reason whatsoever to refer to "the rest of her seed." What distinct portion of living believers in the gospel would be missing? They would all be present and accounted for—the group would be intact, and would include the Tribulation saints to boot.
There is only one reason why the Holy Spirit would use the word loipos in verse 17, and that's because a distinct part the woman's seed has already been removed. Gosh, who could they possibly be?
¹⁶For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, ¹⁷then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
(1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 / emphasis added)

There's part of the woman's seed.
I hear they've got a wedding to attend. That leaves the millions of people who will come to faith in Christ after the Rapture, many no doubt as a result of the preaching of the 144,000 Jewish apostle Pauls who will be unleashed on the post-Rapture world.​
And there's the rest of her seed.
And excuse me while a savor the exquisite irony of the fact that one of the definitions of the word loipos is "left behind."
6. You guys promoting this REV12 sign keep yammering about how it (nearly) coincides with Rosh Hashanah. So what? Rosh Hashanah is not a biblical feast day—it's just a secular holiday that marks the civil New Year in Israel. It's not biblical, so your big REV12 thingy isn't biblical either.
This one really gets me, partly because it's just so blatantly dishonest and, well...stupid. This is even worse than the old "The word 'Rapture' isn't in the Bible" gem I still here from Rapture-deniers from time to time.
Look, here's the deal. On the Jewish calendar, the secular Jewish New Year, known as Rosh Hashanah in Hebrew, is celebrated on Tishri 1 and coincides with the Feast of Trumpets. Both are based on the same new moon on the lunar calendar.
Believe it or not, we actually know that. Since it coincides with the Feast of Trumpets, the two names are routinely used interchangeably by Christians. It's also referred to as Yom Teruah. When biblically knowledgeable people speak of things of a prophetic nature and say "Rosh Hashanah," they are, of course, thinking of the Feast of Trumpets, the biblical feast ordained by God in Leviticus 23:23–25. Got it?
Seriously...how desperate does one have to be in their effort to "discredit" a teaching to say something so obtuse?
7. OK, so according to you guys, the Rapture will happen on September 23, 2017, right? Oh wait, or is it May 21, 2011 (as per Harold Camping)? Or September 11, 1988 (as per Edgar Whisenant)? I hate to point out the obvious, but all previous Rapture predictions and other such apocalyptic hysteria failed miserably, and this REV12 sign is just more of the same overhyped hoopla.
As you can easily imagine, critics of the REV12 sign are gleefully lumping it in with all kinds of spurious junk:
• obscure, complex date calculations
• esoteric secret signs
• hidden Bible codes that can be made to mean anything
• the Mayan calendar/2012 bust
• the Y2K panic
• every failed goofball Rapture prediction in history
...and the beat goes on. This is just one more snide, jellyfish rebuttal that cannot logically be refuted, because it has no logical basis to refute.
The only ​"basis​" for this attack, if you can call it that, is the simple fact that there are some people out there spreading the word about the REV12 sign of September 23, 2017 who, perhaps in their excitement over the fulfillment of prophecy and genuine zeal for the Lord's soon return for His Church, ​might be getting just a wee bit carried away and maybe «OVEREMPHASIZING» the idea that the Rapture might really occur on September 23!!! Oh, but we're not setting dates or anything.
​OK, here's the thing: I know ​the great majority of these people are mature, knowledgeable believers and I know it is not their intention to engage in date-setting. I get that. But I realize that it often comes across that way in the minds of some people. That's the way it is. But, it's like I said...

The sky don't lie

Know this: The REV12 sign stands on its own two legs, and in reality there is no need to emphasize that it could be the actual date of the Rapture. Yeah, so saying that gives the naysayers ammunition...big deal. You know what? The naysayers are going to naysay regardless of what anyone says or does, so what's the point in worrying about what the naysayers naysay?
Their minds are made up. And so is mine.
I am convinced that the REV12 sign itself cannot be attacked or refuted in any substantive biblical way. It cannot logically be lumped in with all the harebrained apocalyptic hoopla that has come and gone before because it doesn't belong in the same category, and the reason is simple:
IT. IS. GOING. TO. HAPPEN.
The first of two signs described by John in Revelation 12:1–5 is going to be fulfilled on September 23, 2017. Period. Virgo will have the moon at her feet, she will be clothed with the sun, she will have a stunning crown of 12 stars for the first time in thousands of years and for the last time for thousands more, and Jupiter will be exiting the area of her womb as she gives birth to the body of Christ so it can be caught up to heaven—and it all comes together on September 23, 2017. I can't change that. A celebrity author can't change that. All the naysayers on earth can't change that. So...
• Unless the moon suddenly starts moving in a different direction before September, it's going to happen.
• Unless one of the nine stars of Leo ups and moves to a completely different location in the night sky, it's going to happen.
• Unless the orbits of Mercury, Mars, Venus, or Jupiter are mysteriously altered in some way over the next several months, it's going to happen.
The literal fulfillment of the REV12 sign is not ​even the issue—that's a done deal. The only issue is what we do with it—how we respond to it. In spite of all ​that's been said, however, I myself see nothing definitive in Scripture that compels me to conclude that the Rapture must literally occur on September 23, 2017. In other words:
Does the REV12 sign depict the Rapture? Yes, absolutely.
​Does that mean it must coincide with it? Not necessarily.
That is something for which I personally don't see any clear-cut scriptural support. Now, is there any extra-biblical support? ​Patterns and other intriguing clues? Yes...a lot, actually. (If you want to see what I mean, just visit www.unsealed.org.) In spite of that, however, I have no scriptural problem whatsoever seeing the REV12 sign as something that precedes the actual event by an unspecified (but not terribly long) period of time.
I understand that no one really wants to hear this, and I certainly derive no satisfaction from saying it—believe me, nobody wants the Rapture to happen on September 23, 2017 more than I do. But I have to ​throw this out there:
It wouldn't shock me if the REV12 sign preceded the Rapture by as much as several years.
There is support from both the Bible and the Talmud for the idea of signs preceding the events they portend, so it's not exactly unheard of. Now, I know that would ruin a lot of people's cool charts. For example, the Blood Moons of 2014–2015 came and went and nothing happened—a whole lotta cool charts went up in flames over that one.
Does that force me to conclude they don't mean anything?
No. I am 100 percent convinced they do mean something—I believe they portend the advent of the worst period of time in Israel's history: the coming Tribulation that will bring the final stage of God's purging of His people and their ultimate redemption.

I ​absolutely believe the Blood Moons were a sign ​to Israel that the sequence of events that will usher in this period is about to begin, and even now the house lights are being dimmed, the players are taking their positions on stage, and the curtain is about to come up. The upshot? The sign preceded the actual events, apparently by at least a couple of years.
Q. Why should the REV12 sign be any different?
A. I see no reason why it should.
People who whine about the fact that God didn't do something according to someone's timeline or in a way that doesn't fit neatly into someone's prophetic box or nifty PowerPoint chart need to be reminded of one thing:
His signs—His rules.
Ours is but to watch and wait—and share what the Holy Spirit reveals to us.

Breaking it down

I have a confession to make. While I was writing this article, I was all set to launch into a finger-wagging sermon about how we shouldn't go around telling others the Rapture might happen on September 23, 2017. Because I don't see any clear biblical support for that, I was going to do a little preaching to the choir about how we shouldn't give the appearance of date-setting—so whatever you do, don't tell people the Rapture might happen on September 23! I'm honestly not sure how I would have put it...
"Pretend as if the thought had never occurred to you that the REV12 sign could mean the Rapture might happen on September 23, 2017. After all, if you do, those nasty old naysayers will have more reason to accuse us of (gulp) date-setting!"
And I say this before God: I could not finish the article.
The Rapture really could
happen this September.
Deal with it.
And there's an excellent
chance that it won't.
Deal with it.
Whatever it was I was trying to say was in Lake Mead, and Hoover Dam was sealed tight. This virtually never happens to me. I usually pretty well know what I want to say because the Holy Spirit has laid something on my heart, and I just go about the business of saying it. It's not rocket science. But I suddenly found myself hemming and hawing and spinning my wheels and re-writing and re-re-writing and shuffling sentences and paragraphs around and night after night swearing I'd finish it tomorrow and...rinse and repeat. I just couldn't do it.
Now, if I were a celebrity author like the guy who is attacking the REV12 sign, I'd just say it was writer's block. But I'm not a celebrity author—I'm just a regular schmoe who loves Jesus and who is doing his best to obey His Word and watch and wait for Him. So, I can't use that excuse.
But as far as people sharing with others about the REV12 sign and telling them the Rapture might happen on September 23, 2017, it finally hit me...
Why not? It's the truth!
The Rapture really could happen this September. Deal with it. And there's an excellent chance that it won't. Deal with it. So some interesting patterns and a few cool charts would go for naught—and it wouldn't be the first time. But it's still gonna happen, and it's gonna happen soon. Keep obeying the Lord's command to watch and wait. And the moment this came to me, I finally felt the flood gates opening.
I break it down this way:
• If you tell mature, prophetically knowledgeable believers who have ears to hear (and some do) that the REV12 sign indicates the Rapture might really occur on September 23, 2017 and it doesn't happen, they will get that you weren't trying to set dates, but were just doing your job as a watchman.
• If you tell believers who don't have ears to hear (and some don't) the same thing and it doesn't happen, they will howl and mock you to high heavens, much like the naysayers discussed in this article.
But they're already doing that now and will never stop, so who cares?
They will scoff no matter what you say, so ignore them. It's their crown to lose, and yours to win—if you do our job and love His appearing.
• If you tell relatively immature believers, or those who aren't savvy about things prophetic, or perhaps spiritual fence-sitters the same thing and it doesn't happen, then yeah, some are liable to be turned off toward Bible prophecy. But that's on them, not you. Again, you're just doing your job.
• If you tell anyone that the REV12 sign indicates the Rapture might really occur on September 23, 2017 and it DOES happen, it won't matter anyway because we'll be in heaven, being rewarded for a job well done.
Speaking of being rewarded, many of you watchmen telling others about the REV12 sign will receive the crown of righteousness—you love His appearing, and are faithfully watching and waiting for Him (2 Tim. 4:8). And although you will be mocked in the days leading up to it, after the Rapture—whenever it occurs—your efforts will stand as a witness to those left behind. A handful of people just might join us in the kingdom later that otherwise might have been lost for eternity, had the Father not arranged to use your humble efforts to pierce their hearts. Why?
Because you did your job.
And to those of you who scoff at the fulfillment of the REV12 sign and the pre-tribulation Rapture; who mock and insult other believers who are merely being obedient to the Holy Spirit; who twist the Word to defend your indefensible attacks on the efforts of faithful watchmen who seek only to honor God and the truth of His Word and inform and edify the body of Christ, I'll say it again:
The sky don't lie.
Oh, I'm sure most of you will be at the bema seat, but while you're there you'll no doubt see some of those faithful watchmen who did their jobs wearing their crowns of righteousness—a crown you won't have. Why?
Because you didn't.
 Greg Lauer / March 2017

Oh my goodness, he packs a wonderful punch!
Knowledge is increasing in these last days, maybe the reason why the Lord held back the knowledge on this sign for now, because it has a date on it and He knew how many would react.  A convergence sign for certain.

You have a good point, Tyo.  People get all wrapped around the axel because they say the "sign" occurs during the day And you need a star computer program to see it.

What they don't understand is that the magi plotted the course of the stars and the time of day on earth makes no difference to the positions of the stars/planets/moon/sun.

The magi understood their days and the 'Sign' as we are told to watch for our own!

I'm certain that there are 'magi' throughout all time who have plotted the courses of the heavens and have been aware of this "sign."  It's come to watchmen in these days ~ and of course, those who listen to them!

The Great Sign ~ indeed!

Agree Tyo - GL indeed packs a wonderful punch!
 



Just thinking...

The Great Sign will be over Israel on September 23, 2017 during the daytime. At that time, they will not see it spiritually (Matthew 12:39, Matthew 16:4, Luke 11:29) and will not see the Great Sign literally as it occurs in daylight.

>>
The Great Sign will be over Israel on September 23, 2017 during the daytime. At that time, they will not see it spiritually (Matthew 12:39, Matthew 16:4, Luke 11:29) and will not see the Great Sign literally as it occurs in daylight.<<

The 'Great Sign' is a New Testament prophecy.  However, if something monumental occurs, references to the 'Great Sign' will be unavoidable, eh?


As a side note ~ the precise "moment" may occur during daylight, but the sign as a whole is very visible for a good period before and after the event.  The "stars" do not move so fast as to be unclear in their travels.

Another group that witnessed the birth of Christ who did not study the stars and travel were the shepherds but they kept watch...

And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. Luke 2:8


More thinking...
 there are the modern-day "shepherds" (believers who know Jesus and the Bible but not necessarily Bible prophecy)??? 


And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. Luke 2:10

Jarhead wrote:>>
The Great Sign will be over Israel on September 23, 2017 during the daytime. At that time, they will not see it spiritually (Matthew 12:39, Matthew 16:4, Luke 11:29) and will not see the Great Sign literally as it occurs in daylight.<<

The 'Great Sign' is a New Testament prophecy.  However, if something monumental occurs, references to the 'Great Sign' will be unavoidable, eh?


As a side note ~ the precise "moment" may occur during daylight, but the sign as a whole is very visible for a good period before and after the event.  The "stars" do not move so fast as to be unclear in their travels.

Thank you - makes sense.
(This article generates much thought)

Tryphena wrote:Another group that witnessed the birth of Christ who did not study the stars and travel were the shepherds but they kept watch...

And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. Luke 2:8


More thinking...
 there are the modern-day "shepherds" (believers who know Jesus and the Bible but not necessarily Bible prophecy)??? 


And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. Luke 2:10

For sure ~ however, The Angelic Host was singing and gave them direct revelation!  (Wow, how cool it must have been to witness THAT!)

The Magi traveled to honor Messiah in His KINGLY role ~ the shepherds tended the flocks destined for SACRIFICE for sin.

Both roles witnessed!

Looking hard at all this, Christ's birth is a model for the Revelation 12 sign as well.  The model gives insight for our time right now.

Magi knew Christ was born from their astronomy knowledge and other insight, (probably scripture and possibly Daniel's  instructions).  I'm guessing they would have used computers if they were available 

The shepherds knew 'cause "the Angelic Hose was singing and them direct revelation".

Another witnessing duo could have been Simeon and Anna.  They both knew who Jesus was.  See Luke 2:25-38

And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. Luke 2:25-26


Anna-


And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem. Luke 2:38

   "unwanted pregnancy"

Jarhead wrote:   "unwanted pregnancy"

or shameful pregnancy better describes it...

I think I am done trying to understand the lack of enthusiasm, read an article that seemed to have a cloaked rebuke for acknowledging The Revelation 12 sign.  The article likened us watching, as those wanting Jesus to perform a "wow me" sign. 
  
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
"But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 
Matthew 12:38-39


The Jews were the scribes and the Pharisees, not the Church.  Not sure many of us were looking for more signs, I wasn't.  The sign was there all along, just recently understood. It seems more like King Solomon, he prayed for wisdom, God was so delighted that He gave Solomon wisdom and riches, a bonus. (See 2 Chronicles 1:11-12) The Revelation 12 sign seems to be a bonus gift for those who are doing what we are suppose to be doing, watching.  And if some choose to ignore I accept that.

Well said, Tyo. 

Thanks JH!


And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; Luke 21:25

• Ruling with a rod of iron. In Psalm 2:7–9, God says the Messiah will rule with a rod of iron, a reference to the Millennial Kingdom on earth. However, in Revelation 2:26–27, Jesus extends this promise to the Church. Then in Revelation 19:14–15 we see Christ returning at the Second Coming with His Church in tow to fulfill this promise as a corporate body. It is this promise in Psalm 2:7–9 that is being quoted in verse 5, so it makes perfect sense to interpret the son as a corporate body, not just Christ alone. In other words, the Church will rule and reign with Christ with a rod of iron, and so we will share in the fulfillment of that prophecy.




This is also discussed in the latest Scott Clarke video, just marking it for now....

Something Epic This Way Comes | September 23, 2017

https://narrowroaddepot.forumotion.com/t626-scott-clarke-videos-revelation-12-sign

When GL explains this, I can sort of see the reasoning behind the claim  & why SC said what he said. But scripture is is the truth, is powerful & awesome...


And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.

He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.

From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the [wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”  Revelation 19: 11-16

Zactly ~ Amen!

Yeshua does NOT need any help. 

Great commentary ~ I will be going back to review Greg Lauer's past commentary.

Thanks so much for posting, Tryph!

Jarhead wrote:Great commentary ~ I will be going back to review Greg Lauer's past commentary.

Thanks so much for posting, Tryph!

Agree - it is a great commentary!
I had read it a couple of months ago, it is posted here on another thread. I had trouble remembering where it was so reposted on this thread under Greg Lauer's name.

Yes, I had also read it previously ~ but with so much coming in it's getting more difficult to keep straight.

There is no harm nor shame in double or re- posting anything.  These days, I'm looking at the Depot to be a resource for a future time.

Bumping this article, good stuff to read again!

------

CHRIST ALONE OR THE BODY OF CHRIST?