Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
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Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
From Unsealed, 12-22-16
Good info, good vids at the ends of the discussion as well!
Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
We've written extensively about what appears to be a literal fulfillment of the heavenly sign John saw in [url=http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev 12.1-5]Revelation 12:1-5[/url] (see here, here, and here), but I want to make clear to our readers that I am not setting the date of the rapture on September 23rd, 2017. It could happen that day or it could happen before or perhaps shortly after - it's all up to God's perfect timing and plan. However, what I am saying is that what happens on that day does appear to be the culmination of the heavenly sign John saw in [url=http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev 12.1-5]Revelation 12:1-5[/url]. I've tried time and time again to disprove what I and many other Christians are seeing, but I simply can't no matter how hard I try. Here are some of the common arguments against this being the sign:
1. It isn't visible in Israel.
I'm not sure who first made the argument that the constellations in question (Virgo and Leo) will not be in the sky above Israel in Fall 2017, but it simply isn't true. The entire sign will be in the western sky above Israel and Jerusalem on Saturday, September 23rd - and how fitting that the sign that may be heralding the end of the Church Age will be seen right where the Sun sets and the day ends. One might argue that observers can't see the alignment because the Sun is up, but that's exactly what John saw - the woman is clothed with the Sun. And, as a matter of fact, after the Sun sets, everything but the woman's crown will be visible in the night sky.
2. This sign isn't unique, it's happened before.
Some skeptics have pointed to similar alignments in 70 AD, 3 BC, and 3915 BC in an attempt to dismiss the significance of the September 23rd sign. The glaring problem with their argument though is that these similar occurrences fail to meet every textual requirement given in Revelation 12. The woman is not crowned by 12 stars during the alignments of 70 AD and 3 BC and there is not a nine month "pregnancy" during any of these other alignments. For these reasons, among others, the September 2017 alignment is unique in all of human history.
(see link for complete article and videos)
http://www.unsealed.org/2016/12/arguments-against-revelation-12-sign.html
Good info, good vids at the ends of the discussion as well!
Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
We've written extensively about what appears to be a literal fulfillment of the heavenly sign John saw in [url=http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev 12.1-5]Revelation 12:1-5[/url] (see here, here, and here), but I want to make clear to our readers that I am not setting the date of the rapture on September 23rd, 2017. It could happen that day or it could happen before or perhaps shortly after - it's all up to God's perfect timing and plan. However, what I am saying is that what happens on that day does appear to be the culmination of the heavenly sign John saw in [url=http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev 12.1-5]Revelation 12:1-5[/url]. I've tried time and time again to disprove what I and many other Christians are seeing, but I simply can't no matter how hard I try. Here are some of the common arguments against this being the sign:
1. It isn't visible in Israel.
I'm not sure who first made the argument that the constellations in question (Virgo and Leo) will not be in the sky above Israel in Fall 2017, but it simply isn't true. The entire sign will be in the western sky above Israel and Jerusalem on Saturday, September 23rd - and how fitting that the sign that may be heralding the end of the Church Age will be seen right where the Sun sets and the day ends. One might argue that observers can't see the alignment because the Sun is up, but that's exactly what John saw - the woman is clothed with the Sun. And, as a matter of fact, after the Sun sets, everything but the woman's crown will be visible in the night sky.
2. This sign isn't unique, it's happened before.
Some skeptics have pointed to similar alignments in 70 AD, 3 BC, and 3915 BC in an attempt to dismiss the significance of the September 23rd sign. The glaring problem with their argument though is that these similar occurrences fail to meet every textual requirement given in Revelation 12. The woman is not crowned by 12 stars during the alignments of 70 AD and 3 BC and there is not a nine month "pregnancy" during any of these other alignments. For these reasons, among others, the September 2017 alignment is unique in all of human history.
(see link for complete article and videos)
http://www.unsealed.org/2016/12/arguments-against-revelation-12-sign.html
Tryphosa- Posts : 4592
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
Another argument, it's date setting!
Answer: Man did not set this date, the date is set in the heavens by sun, moon, stars, planets and constellations.
Answer: Man did not set this date, the date is set in the heavens by sun, moon, stars, planets and constellations.
Tryphosa- Posts : 4592
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
Tryphosa wrote:Another argument, it's date setting!
Answer: Man did not set this date, the date is set in the heavens by sun, moon, stars, planets and constellations.
It is a celestial event that will happen soon and is prophesied in the Bible.
Tryphena- Posts : 3319
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
Signs and seasons.
We are told to WATCH and not be taken unawares.
We are told to WATCH and not be taken unawares.
Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
Jarhead wrote:Signs and seasons.
We are told to WATCH and not be taken unawares.
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
Tryphena wrote:Tryphosa wrote:Another argument, it's date setting!
Answer: Man did not set this date, the date is set in the heavens by sun, moon, stars, planets and constellations.
It is a celestial event that will happen soon and is prophesied in the Bible.
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
To be safe about date setting, I guess we do not know, after all Jesus did not start his ministry until 30 years after His birth, (30 years after the sign of a virgin giving birth to a male son).
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14
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Rev 12; 9-23-17 Prophecy Has A Couple Of Flaws
(Much respect Terry Malone, but the points he made are not convincing enough to sway that this sign coming on 9-23-17 is not significant.)
Revelation 12; September 23, 2017 Prophecy Has A Couple Of Flaws
Published on Jan 22, 2017
Revelation 12; September 23, 2017 Prophecy Has A Couple Of Flaws
Revelation 12; September 23, 2017 Prophecy Has A Couple Of Flaws
Published on Jan 22, 2017
Revelation 12; September 23, 2017 Prophecy Has A Couple Of Flaws
Tryphosa- Posts : 4592
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
It is a sign, a great sign, in the book of "revealing" Revelation. It's in the Bible, it is from Jesus, not sure how there could be any doubt.
In the above video, he gives his concerns, all of which have been addressed by Scott Clark, Matson, Unsealed and others.
2:00 Imminent view, church is never referred to as a child, only a bride, church is not the child
4:40 it is not a visable sign
5:30 blood moons a bust
6:20 man always looking for a sign
7:20 conspiracy theories
(With some prayer and more research I think the sign would come clear to the author of the video.)
In the above video, he gives his concerns, all of which have been addressed by Scott Clark, Matson, Unsealed and others.
2:00 Imminent view, church is never referred to as a child, only a bride, church is not the child
4:40 it is not a visable sign
5:30 blood moons a bust
6:20 man always looking for a sign
7:20 conspiracy theories
(With some prayer and more research I think the sign would come clear to the author of the video.)
Tryphosa- Posts : 4592
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
I think it helps to go back to THE BIG sign Jesus gave us:
The rebirth of Israel and the length of a human generation, and that many of those living at the time of the rebirth would still be alive at His coming.
Folks, we're in that window now.
The rebirth of Israel and the length of a human generation, and that many of those living at the time of the rebirth would still be alive at His coming.
Folks, we're in that window now.
Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
In agreement Tyo & JH.
The clincher for me: John uses the same word (phrase in English) in Revelation 12: 5 as Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - "caught up" = (the Greek word) harpazō.
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Revelation 12:5
The clincher for me: John uses the same word (phrase in English) in Revelation 12: 5 as Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - "caught up" = (the Greek word) harpazō.
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Revelation 12:5
Tryphena- Posts : 3319
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
Agree JH, we are in the window! Good to think about!Jarhead wrote:I think it helps to go back to THE BIG sign Jesus gave us:
The rebirth of Israel and the length of a human generation, and that many of those living at the time of the rebirth would still be alive at His coming.
Folks, we're in that window now.
Reminds me when Daniel read in Jeremiah that the seventy years was coming to a close, (when the Jews were in captivity), he knew that the captivity time was ending because he read it in the Scriptures. He recognized the seventy year time period was for them.
in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the LORD through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. Daniel 9:2
Tryphosa- Posts : 4592
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
Tryphena wrote:In agreement Tyo & JH.
The clincher for me: John uses the same word (phrase in English) in Revelation 12: 5 as Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - "caught up" = (the Greek word) harpazō.
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Revelation 12:5
Interesting, Tryph, two witnesses describing the same event using the same word harpazo.
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
A Defense Of The Revelation 12 Sign And Its Connection To The Rapture
Feb 14, 2017 article from Unsealed
http://www.unsealed.org/2017/02/a-defense-of-revelation-12-sign-and-its.html
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
The naysayers are those that will complain about Christ's 2nd Coming.
There is just too much corroboration on this 'sign' to leave any doubt. Especially the recent exposition on the Woman giving birth BEFORE labor.
It's one of those things that the Lord has been chuckling about and then He remembers we are but dust and has mercy on us by imparting understanding to the diligent.
May we always Praise the Lord ~ His mercy endures forever!
There is just too much corroboration on this 'sign' to leave any doubt. Especially the recent exposition on the Woman giving birth BEFORE labor.
It's one of those things that the Lord has been chuckling about and then He remembers we are but dust and has mercy on us by imparting understanding to the diligent.
May we always Praise the Lord ~ His mercy endures forever!
Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
Had to post this because some responses appear to be a sincere discussion opposing the Rev 12 sign.
http://raptureintheairnow.com/?topic=a-defense-of-the-revelation-12-sign-and-its-connection-to-the-rapture
Just the words a "Now a great sign appeared in heaven:" is enough for one to take heed!
http://raptureintheairnow.com/?topic=a-defense-of-the-revelation-12-sign-and-its-connection-to-the-rapture
Just the words a "Now a great sign appeared in heaven:" is enough for one to take heed!
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
Agreed!Jarhead wrote:The naysayers are those that will complain about Christ's 2nd Coming.
There is just too much corroboration on this 'sign' to leave any doubt. Especially the recent exposition on the Woman giving birth BEFORE labor.
It's one of those things that the Lord has been chuckling about and then He remembers we are but dust and has mercy on us by imparting understanding to the diligent.
May we always Praise the Lord ~ His mercy endures forever!
Tryphosa- Posts : 4592
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
Arguments against the Revelation 12 Sign are addressed in this article.
What The September, 2017 Revelation 12 Sign Tells Us
https://escapeallthesethings.com/sept-2017-revelation-12/#comment-1067
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Not positive what will occur this fall of 2017, but one would be wise to be watching, readying and staying close to the Lord.
What The September, 2017 Revelation 12 Sign Tells Us
https://escapeallthesethings.com/sept-2017-revelation-12/#comment-1067
-------
Not positive what will occur this fall of 2017, but one would be wise to be watching, readying and staying close to the Lord.
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. 2 Peter 3:18 |
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
I'm just shooting from the hip, need to find scripture to confirm but weren't Adam & Eve clothed in light before the fall? It makes sense the Revelation 12 woman is clothed with the sun.
And that the sun appears to be on or just above her shoulder. Think about it - our clothes hang from our shoulders. The "clothed with the sun" ouftit seems to be gathered or clasped at the shoulder, golden, shining fabric cascading, flowing down over her chest, pregnant tummy, hips, thighs, legs ... I can easily visualize this.
And that the sun appears to be on or just above her shoulder. Think about it - our clothes hang from our shoulders. The "clothed with the sun" ouftit seems to be gathered or clasped at the shoulder, golden, shining fabric cascading, flowing down over her chest, pregnant tummy, hips, thighs, legs ... I can easily visualize this.
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
Makes sense and great analogy, Tryph!
I recall C. Missler proposing the clothed with light theory ~ they WERE clothed with something that was immaterial (or they would have picked it up and re-attired) that disappeared after the fall.
I recall C. Missler proposing the clothed with light theory ~ they WERE clothed with something that was immaterial (or they would have picked it up and re-attired) that disappeared after the fall.
Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
Tryphena wrote:I'm just shooting from the hip, need to find scripture to confirm but weren't Adam & Eve clothed in light before the fall? It makes sense the Revelation 12 woman is clothed with the sun.
And that the sun appears to be on or just above her shoulder. Think about it - our clothes hang from our shoulders. The "clothed with the sun" ouftit seems to be gathered or clasped at the shoulder, golden, shining fabric cascading, flowing down over her chest, pregnant tummy, hips, thighs, legs ... I can easily visualize this.
Agreed Tryph! Describes perfectly where the sun is situated!
Mark Biltz referred to the blood moons as divine appointments. It would seem this is very much a divine appointment, would not want to dismiss this great sign so causally.
Two thousand years ago the wisemen traveled a great distance following a sign, they were not certain on everything involved, they asked Herod what location the Scriptures state where the child would be born. They did not know it all, they still had questions.
saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.” Matthew 2:2
This is an e z button issue, not much asked of us believers, this is a gift, a treasure hidden in the Bible, and we are given the location and date of this great sign.
Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What? Could you not watch with Me one hour? Matthew 26:40
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Debunking the Revelation 12 sign? And Part 2
Straight-Shooter!!
Debunking the Revelation 12 sign?
Published on Mar 18, 2017
Concerning those who are debunking the Revelation 12 sign. Especially those who are completely denying its viability.
Debunking Rev. 12 sign#2
Published on Mar 23, 2017
Watchman Warning!!!
My further support of Scottie Clarke an the Revelation 12 sign.
Debunking the Revelation 12 sign?
Published on Mar 18, 2017
Concerning those who are debunking the Revelation 12 sign. Especially those who are completely denying its viability.
Debunking Rev. 12 sign#2
Published on Mar 23, 2017
Watchman Warning!!!
My further support of Scottie Clarke an the Revelation 12 sign.
Tryphosa- Posts : 4592
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
As mentioned in other posts ~ most everyone (leaders) missed the "signs" on the Lord's 1st coming, yet the calendar was there alone with the Bethlehem star and John the
Baptist!
Most folks had gotten wrapped up in 'religion' and works and even those who were watching we looking for something different.
I'm not so sure we are any smarter today. We could be looking for something different?
God gave Daniel the information down to THE DAY. I'm thinking He's done no less for the people called by His name today.
imo, the 'no one knows the day or the hour' mantra is used inappropriately. I see it as for the last days of the tribulation period for not knowing the exact day of the Lord's return to earth ~ not the rapture.
The end of the church age, or rapture is our blessed hope ~ we will be delivered from the time of Jacob's Troubles. I believe the Lord gave the exact time for Messiah's 1st Coming and specific timing for Jacob's Trouble. How could He do less for His church?
Thing is ~ He didn't ~ He's given us signs in the sun, moon and stars; just like the first time.
Regardless how this turns out we must remain faithful. Just trust Him and continue to pray for guidance and insight.
Maranatha!
Baptist!
Most folks had gotten wrapped up in 'religion' and works and even those who were watching we looking for something different.
I'm not so sure we are any smarter today. We could be looking for something different?
God gave Daniel the information down to THE DAY. I'm thinking He's done no less for the people called by His name today.
imo, the 'no one knows the day or the hour' mantra is used inappropriately. I see it as for the last days of the tribulation period for not knowing the exact day of the Lord's return to earth ~ not the rapture.
The end of the church age, or rapture is our blessed hope ~ we will be delivered from the time of Jacob's Troubles. I believe the Lord gave the exact time for Messiah's 1st Coming and specific timing for Jacob's Trouble. How could He do less for His church?
Thing is ~ He didn't ~ He's given us signs in the sun, moon and stars; just like the first time.
Regardless how this turns out we must remain faithful. Just trust Him and continue to pray for guidance and insight.
Maranatha!
The Revelation 12 sign taking a fresh look...
The Revelation 12 sign taking a fresh look...
Published on Apr 5, 2017
Taking a deep look at the de-bunkers. You decide...
Published on Apr 5, 2017
Taking a deep look at the de-bunkers. You decide...
Tryphosa- Posts : 4592
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign
1:40 the red dragon ~ this is interesting 'cause I've seen this before, but did not know it was in the constellation Virgo and yes it does look like it's from the movie Ghost Busters, but nonetheless, yikes...
Then here come the naysayers...cringe worthy as none had valid arguments
4:15
6:20
9:50
(not judging these men, just surprised by their dismissal of the sign, no fresh insight here)
Then here come the naysayers...cringe worthy as none had valid arguments
4:15
6:20
9:50
(not judging these men, just surprised by their dismissal of the sign, no fresh insight here)
Last edited by Tryphosa on Fri Apr 07 2017, 07:15; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarify)
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