Pete Garcia ~ The Rapture and 2017

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Pete Garcia ~ The Rapture and 2017

Post by Tryphena on Tue May 09 2017, 06:59

First topic message reminder :

The Rapture and 2017 
Prophecy - Signs 
Friday, May 05, 2017 
Pete Garcia
 
Several years ago there was a growing movement within the watcher community that really tried to justify the Rapture happening in 2011. I remember this being a high-watch year for the Rapture of the Church and people were coming out of the woodwork with dreams and visions trying to validate/justify this reasoning. 
The excitement centered on the idea that if we added 70 years to 1948, it would bring us to the year 2018. According to this logic, if the Second Coming took place in 2018, then by necessity we would have to subtract the required seven years for the Tribulation to occur, bringing us back to the year 2011. Well, 2011 came and went and we are still here. Clearly, there were some faults in this logic.
Although I remain hopeful every year, I did not throw my lot in with the majority in this group simply because I still had many reservations about the timing. My problem with 2011, was that it did not coincide with any other combination of years as they pertain to any pattern of historically significant or prophetic events as they relate to Israel…God’s prophetic timepiece. Interestingly, I had my own “dream” if you can call it that in March of 2012. It was very vivid in my mind even after I woke up and I emailed Jack Kinsella about it.
Jack probably thought I was off my rocker a little, but I kept this dream to myself for the most part over these last five years. I tend not to give a lot of credence to dreams and I do not consider them divine messages per se…but I do not completely discount them either. I think we must use discernment in these issues. But back on point, if you added 50 years to 1967, you would get 2017. But if you subtracted seven years from 2017 for a Second Coming, it takes you back to 2010 which cuts the seven-year tribulation (Daniel’s 70th Week) short by one year if you used 2011 as the benchmark. You could try this with any other year besides 2017 and you continually run into the same issues of numerical and prophetic incongruence. 

Another high watch year was 2007, which if you were to subtract 40 years from, would bring you to 1967; the year the Jews recaptured Jerusalem in the Six Day War. Seeing as that time (and a subsequent seven-year tribulation) has come and gone, clearly, this could not have been the case, unless perhaps you happen to be a hardcore historical-preterist. (Just kidding) Other high watch years tended to be more symbolic than anything: 2012, 2000, 1999, etc. The truth is that Christ could have returned at any of those times but He didn't. If Israel is the SUPERSIGN of the last days (which I believe it is), then Israel has been back in her land since 1948. She has had control of Jerusalem since 1967. Why then are we still here in 2017 and the Lord has yet to return? What is He waiting on?

Assessment
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:8-9
I do not think the Lord’s patience is random or arbitrary. Neither do I think it is simply because He is longsuffering (even though He is). But if longsuffering were God’s sole prerogative, then He could choose to wait until every last person alive today either dies in unbelief or converts and becomes a believer. This could take another hundred years or more which, in my opinion, would maximize longsuffering to its uttermost. But we then have two dilemmas; one which states that God is longsuffering and wants none to perish (this is true), and the other which is a Bible that states that the whole world (minus those redeemed) would enter into a time of judgment for their unbelief. Thus we must deduce that God’s longsuffering, in regards to a Christ-rejecting world, has an expiration date. So why should we think 2017 is any different or more special than 2011, 2007, 1999, 1988, etc.? Let’s recap what we know:
The significance of 2017:
[list="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: georgia,"]
[*]1897-2017=120 years, (Warning till judgment) First Zionist Congress convenes

[*]1917-2017=100 years, (God allows for time to store up judgment against the Amorites) Balfour Declaration

[*]1947-2017=70 years, (Punishment for Israel’s violation of the Land Sabbath) Israel wins right for statehood on 29 November 1947

[*]1967-2017=50 years, (Jubilee) Israel regains all of Jerusalem back in Six Day War

[*]1977-2017=40 years, (Period of testing) beginning of trials Vis a Vis "Land for Peace" beginning with the Camp David Accords

[*]1987-2017=30 years, (Priestly duties begin at 30 years of age) Temple Mount Institute founded

[*]The Jubilees

  1. 1897-1947= 50 years=one Jubilee cycle
  2. 1917-1967= 50 years=one Jubilee cycle
  3. 1967-2017= 50 years=one Jubilee cycle


[/list]
I believe that trying to justify anyone single definition of a generation in the Bible is futile. There are several examples of how long a generation could be, thus I do not believe the Bible pins its definition to just one. We know that before the flood, and just afterward, people lived for centuries which would make the standard 25-40 year generation seem awfully short. Likewise, we know that in the ensuing time different cultures have varying life spans. Thus trying to determine the exact length of a generation is pointless. Well, how then can we know what Jesus was referring to in the “Parable of the Fig Tree” when He said this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place (Matt. 24:32-34)? Well, about the only thing we can discern from this comes from the above-underlined portion, which harkens back to the length of time God has given a man to live in our present age.
The days of our lives are seventy years;
And if by reason of strength they are eighty years,
Yet their boast is only labor and sorrow;
For it is soon cut off, and we fly away. Psalm 90:10

We know some folks live longer than 70 or 80 years, but there also many who do not even reach 70 years of age. I believe this is a general average for all mankind and still allows for exceptions. Psalm 90 was the only one Moses penned and he lived to be 120 years old (Deut. 34:7). But concerning 2017, there has been at least five different points that converge together at this particular year. Grouping them you have:

In fact, no other year has so many signs pointing to it that it could be confused for any other. No other combination works. This leads me to three points: the first by the angel Gabriel (to Daniel), the second by Jesus, and the third by the apostle Paul.
Daniel
The 70 Weeks Prophecy (as given to Daniel) would pinpoint the precise time period the Messiah would come to Israel by pointing out that He would be killed in the 483rd year (out of 490). This tells me two things:
[list="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: georgia,"]
[*]God does not shrink back from telling us precise things about the future.

[*]That if His people were to pay attention, they would know without a shadow of a doubt, when the Messiah would come.

[/list]
Yet, only a handful of people were anticipating the Messiah’s arrival at the correct time (Wise men from the east, Simeon, Anna the prophetess, and John the Baptist's parents). Jesus even remarked in Luke 19:41-44 that they (the Jews and Jerusalem) should have recognized their day (Palm Sunday) and that it was exactly 483 years to the day (173,880 days) since the recognizable commandment as was given to the cupbearer Nehemiah in his book, chapter 2.
Jesus
In His Olivet Discourse, Jesus explained that there would be 16 general signs marking the end of the age. Yet, these signs have been present in every generation. The distinction He makes is that they would escalate in size, frequency, and intensity until they reach a culmination point (i.e.…birth pangs would not go on indefinitely). Then He gives an absolutely obvious, unmistakable sign that happens smack dab in the middle of the 70th Week (three and a half years into the seven years) which is known as the Abomination of Desolation (Matt. 24:15).
So if we backward plan from the Abomination of Desolation would first require that a Jewish temple existed again. Remember He told them at the beginning of His Olivet Discourse that the Temple would be destroyed to the extent that not one stone would be left on the other (Matt. 23:37-24:2). For a Jewish temple to exist again requires that Jews are back in control of Jerusalem which had not been the case for 2,000 years. For Jews to control Jerusalem means that they would have to be back in their land as a sovereign Jewish nation. Clearly, the Arabs would not have any need or desire to rebuild a Jewish temple. Only Jews, in control of their land, would have the need and desire to rebuild a Jewish Temple. What they had lacked for the last 50 years, is the political will. 

But the interesting thing Jesus stated (this after chastising the Pharisees for not recognizing the signs of the times-Matt. 16:1-4), was that no man could know the day or hour (Matt. 24:36). He stated only the Father would know when He would send His Son back to earth to fetch the Church. We know this is in reference to the Rapture because once the Tribulation begins, it is clearly defined by two, three and a half year halves of 42 months or 1,260 days each (Daniel 7:5Revelation 12:61413:5). One could easily count down the time from either the covenant (Dan. 9:27) or the Abomination of Desolation (Matt. 24:152 Thess. 2:4) to know when the Second Coming would occur.

I believe because Jesus is being so specific here (day or hour) He is simply telling us that for two thousand years, mankind would not know the exactness of His return. It is not that we won’t know, but that we couldn’t know simply because this was all predicated on Israel being back in her land. With the exception of a certain Evangelicals and Dispensationalists of the 19th century, nobody expected Israel back as a nation again. Even then, these men didn’t know that it would require two World Wars for that to become a reality. In light of that fact, Israel is now back in her land. Now that we can clearly see this means we should know the season of His return is at hand. I would wager to say that the late 19th and 20th centuries were the ramping up of birth pangs and we all know what follows birth pangs? The Birth of the Church at the Rapture (Romans 8:22-2328-30)

Another thing to consider about those few Jews who read and anticipated Daniels 70 Weeks prophecy.  They knew the Messiah would die in the 483rd year (of the 490 years per verse 9:26), but what they didn't know was how old the Messiah would be when He died. Even the Wise Men had to follow a Star (a cosmic sign) to Bethlehem. So while they did not know exactly when the Messiah would be alive, they had a general idea. (See Daniel 2 for why I hold that view on the Wise Men).

So for the better part of 2000 years, men, women, scholars, teachers and everyone else has wondered...when will Jesus return?  But the missing key to making this whole puzzle come unlocked was the nation of Israel. Without Israel back in her land, there could be no AoD, because there would not be a Jewish temple, which means that those aforementioned 16 general signs would have had no frame of reference by which to place them. We even have a saying now that coincides with this: WWI prepared the land (Israel) for the people (the Jews), and WWII prepared the people (the Jews) for the land (Israel). Without Israel, those general signs would have just kept flowing cyclically both waxing and waning according to Satan's schemes and agenda.

Paul
The last reference is to the apostle Paul. He explains the Rapture of the Church to the fledgling Thessalonian church and in doing so (remember they didn't have chapter breaks back in the original texts) he states that they needn't fear because they (we) would recognize the season. After the Rapture, there is immediately sudden destruction, and they (Non-believers) shall not escape. Read it all together.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-5:5
I believe Paul believed that the Rapture of the Church would/could be imminent. He didn’t know (or at least we are not told whether he knew) when exactly it would occur. In his 2ndletter to the Thessalonians, Paul does clarify that the Antichrist (son of perdition) could NOT come, until the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) was taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8). Just as the Holy Spirit existed and operated on the earth prior to the day of Pentecost, so too will He exist and operate post-Rapture. What changes is His role in sealing a particular group of people known as the Church (salt and light) who being neither Jew nor Gentile, but a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17).
Conclusion
Just as the Pharisees refused to walk the 5 miles from Jerusalem to Bethlehem to see this newborn King of the Jews (Matt. 2:1-12), so too are their modern day counterparts (the skeptical religious class) who are unwilling to recognize the signs of the time. They do so at their own peril (at a minimum is a loss of spiritual rewards) because they refuse to teach, watch, or listen to those who do wait for the Lords return (2 Peter 3:3-7).
Will Christ return in 2017? I believe all signs point to yes making it a strong contender year, but that's just my opinion.
Will my faith be shaken if He does not? No, because I know without a doubt we are in The Season, just not sure which season that means. Does Christ’s return have to align with a Biblical Feast Date like Pentecost (Shavuot) or the Feast of Trumpets? From a historical and scriptural standpoint, it would seem logical...i.e., Christ fulfilled prophecies on the first four including the conception of the Church at Pentecost. But since I can’t see into the future, I really do not know. Logically, given all the signs of convergence, it seems like a strong year to keep looking up.
To answer a previous question, if Israel was the SUPERSIGN, why has He yet to return? I believe Galatians 4:4-5 answers that for us.
When Jesus came the first time, it was at the fullness of times (Gal. 4:4-5). Since Rome was the world power in Christ’s first century and they were the epitome of judicial law, regional order and stability (Pax Romana), military might, common language, accumulated knowledge, and so forth, that was God’s definition of the fullness of times. I believe that God’s longsuffering has been demonstrated quite thoroughly seeing that it is both 70 years since Israel become a nation again and 50 years since they’ve regained Jerusalem. Should the Lord tarry beyond 2017, all significance to the timing (see above) would move into the realm of random and arbitrary. This is not to say that God couldn’t still extend the time though if He chooses.   
Fast forward to today, where mankind has dabbled and dominated in every domain of life to include playing God. The 20th century saw man break the sound barrier, walk on the moon, and built large hadron colliders. Communication went from messenger to telegraph, telephone, the internet, and satellite communication. Man has discovered and figured out how to sequence, alter, add, or subtract to his DNA and modern medicine continues to extend life beyond that which was prescribed to man. Man can control devices with his mind, create robots and is building artificial intelligence. I believe what we are witnessing now is the fullness of times once again, as foretold in Daniel 12:1-4…(keeping in mind Daniel was not told about the Church and the Church age was still a mystery).
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever. But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Even so, Maranatha!

http://www.omegaletter.com/articles/articles.asp?ArticleID=8437


(Pete's on board! - Tryph)
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Re: Pete Garcia ~ The Rapture and 2017

Post by Tryphosa on Mon Jun 12 2017, 22:42

Tryphena wrote:
Tryphosa wrote:
Jarhead wrote:Tyo, you're correct (Noahic ) the Rapture will beat the "where were you when Kennedy was shot" moment by the longest shot ever!
There's the correct spelling, Noahic, thanks JH!

It will be a remembered moment like the Kennedy time... a world-wide shock moment...

I remember the moment when I learned of the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami.  Visiting relatives I walked into the living room where the tv was on. Someone exclaimed "A big wave came and washed all the people away!" Someone else called it a tidal wave. In our land-locked state the word tsunami was unknown (although well known in ocean side areas of the world). The word is common now and everyone can pronounce it & even spell it. 

Thinking about the word Rapture. I believe many will come to know it & realize what they missed and no doubt there will be another word used by the still unbelievers.

Yep and they will call it The Great-Good Riddance!
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Re: Pete Garcia ~ The Rapture and 2017

Post by Jarhead on Tue Jun 13 2017, 04:21

Pete's 'Heaven Can Wait?' was a good article ~ my take on it is that he's gently tying to wake a few up. 
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Re: Pete Garcia ~ The Rapture and 2017

Post by Tryphena on Wed Jun 14 2017, 06:01

Jarhead wrote:Pete's 'Heaven Can Wait?' was a good article ~ my take on it is that he's gently tying to wake a few up. 

Agree and in his follow-up article puts emphasis on convergence and moves beyond imminence.
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Heaven Can Wait? Is the Doctrine of Imminence still relevant? Part II

Post by Tryphena on Wed Jun 14 2017, 06:14

Heaven Can Wait? 
Is the Doctrine of Imminence still relevant? Part II 
Prophecy - Signs 
Monday, June 12, 2017 
Pete Garcia

If you take anything away from this and last week’s article, let me sum it up by saying this; the greater the convergence, the lesser the imminence. The same is true in reverse, the greater the imminence, the lesser the convergence. It is impossible for both concepts to take up equal space on the same prophetic timeline. The only caveat to this then applies only to those who choose to remain ignorant of the signs of the times.

Because the world pushed the 20th century into the modern age with advancements in just about every field of knowledge.  One would think that in an era of instant gratification and information, life on earth would become sublimely utopic. Rather quite the opposite has occurred with this world’s out of control addiction to technology causing many to self-alienate and disconnect from reality. It is at this juncture that we come to a unique paradox matched only in one other time in human history, the pre-flood world.

On one hand, life for a majority of the world (the extreme third-world being the exception) has improved technologically, medically, economically, and socially. On the other hand, the Bible states that things will deteriorate morally, socially, and religiously as time goes on. Thus we have the convergence of increased knowledge and travel (Daniel 12:4) which has resulted in the overall increase wickedness and violence on a global scale. And the unintended consequences of man’s increased free time and liberty due to said technological advancements (Gen. 6:5Luke 17:26).

One of the consequences of the curse God put on Adam after the Fall, was that man was to toil and work the land to survive (Gen. 3:17-19). For most of human history, life on earth was brutal and tough. When a civilization reached its apex, what inevitability ensued was a rapid deterioration in that society’s morals and values ultimately making societal collapse all but inevitable. We are again at this summit of where mankind need not struggle to eat, shop, buy, marry, etc.

Although there are still some undeveloped places on the planet, for a majority of the world, electricity, the internet, instant communication (cell phones, computers, landlines, etc.), and advanced travel are still accessible. Also consider that today, most of the world does not farm. Only a small fraction of the population actually labors to produce any food. The rest of us buy from stores the things we need and want. As to violence, more people have died in the past century than the previous twenty centuries combined. In Earth’s Earliest Ages, G.H. Pember noted (this in 1884)…

…the fitness of man for a condition of extreme liberty, and the worth of a trust in the innate justice supposed to lie at the bottom of the human heart, have been already tested by the great Creator. Modern philosophers are urging a repetition of the experiment; but the history of the times of old proves the fallacy of their views. For the wickedness of man became great; all flesh corrupted its way upon the earth, and the earth was filled with violence. And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man.

The Bible is quite clear when speaking about certain future events which have to happen. Scriptural logic leads one to understand that events rarely just happen instantaneously. There is an unfolding of connected or interrelated events that makes something that seemed either impossible or unlikely, all but inevitable. For example, the Bible speaks about Israel becoming a nation again for the second time (Amos 9:14-15Isaiah 11:11-12Ezekiel 37). But were it not for World War I and II, the rebirth of the nation of Israel could not have happened. Could God have brought Israel back into the table of nations without major global wars? Sure, but that is not how things have transpired. So it stands to reason that our recent history has unfolded precisely as God intended it, along with its intended results.


Transitional Imminence: 1917-1948

Israel, as John Nelson Darby taught it, was God’s timepiece. If that is true, then Israel’s entire history going back to Abraham should be the most chronicled and detailed of any people who ever existed. It is.

As many today note, Israel is the super-sign of the end times. Israel’s rebirth as a nation after almost two millennia in Diaspora is absolutely a miracle. No other nation can make that claim. But before Israel became a nation again, there was the stirring of the Jewish people to return to their homeland. The Zionist Movement, which began in 1897 by Theodor Herzl, along with strong Dispensational and other Christian evangelical support, became momentum that would continue from 1897 through 1948. From a Christian perspective, that support didn’t occur in a vacuum.

Darby’s support in the early 19th century for the return of the Jews back to what was then just a backwater province of the Ottoman Empire became influential amongst other Dispensationalists. Many of the early Dispensationalists had come out of the Anglican and Presbyterian denominations to make up the Plymouth Brethren. Their influence in part helped later shape decision makers like Lord Balfour to instruct England’s political position on the rightful return of the Jews back to what was then called Palestine. As World War I began drawing to a close, it was clear that the Ottoman Turks were in no position to continue ruling over the Middle East, thus European powers began to drawing boundaries to set different nations again.

With England’s support for the now growing European Zionist movement, teachers and preachers of Dispensationalism were cautiously optimistic that they were witnessing God’s word being fulfilled. Men like C.I. Scofield, Clarence Larkin, and others wrote decades before 1948, that the Jews would become a nation again just as the Bible predicted it (Jeremiah 31:35-36Ezekiel 37Amos 9:15Isaiah 211)…and so it was. This Balfour Declaration encouraged and renewed the strength of the literal view of scriptural interpretation and they began to understand that as Israel goes, so goes God’s clock for the world. Watching the progress of Israel becoming a nation again, meant for these early watchers that the fullness of the Gentiles and the time of the Gentiles would soon be drawing to a close. I call this period of time Transitional Imminence simply because although the Church could see God moving and shaping events, Israel had yet to become a nation again.

Limited Imminence: 1948-Present

On November 29th, 1947, the United Nations approved a Partition Plan that agreed to divide up what was then Palestine into a separate Arab and Jewish state. The Jews declared their independence some six months later on May 14th, 1948, and were immediately attacked by their Arab neighbors. And from then until now, Israel has tenuously and cautiously lived in a neighborhood hell-bent on her destruction. The significance of her rebirth has worn off since many are not old enough to remember a time when there wasn’t a nation of Israel. There are many today who don’t even remember a time when Israel wasn’t in complete control of Jerusalem. Much time dulls the eyes of many in the church.

The idea of imminence being limited might sound odd to the reader, but what is implied is that our window for Christ’s return is rapidly shrinking, thus limiting the timeframe in which imminence can be completely unknowable. Again, we can’t know the day or hour, but we will recognize the season. We know this as a certainty, because when Jesus gave His Olivet Discourse…He added a comment about convergence that matches up with the later revelations that were given to Peter, Paul, James, Jude, and John.

 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Matthew 24:32-34

We know from the rapid advancements in the past century with technology, communications, warfare, digital currencies, medicine, natural and manmade disasters, that it is quickly placing us in a time that matches the capabilities present in the seven-year window known as Daniel’s 70th Week. Along with the geopolitical arrangements with nations aligning themselves as they are (The United Nations, the European Union, Russia, Iran, Turkey, etc.) also point toward the world in which final day events play out.

On top of that, we see what was once the stronghold of the Christian faith in the West is crumbling. Just as political and military power have primarily moved westward over time, we now see the Christian faith moving eastward as God the Holy Spirit once again moves mightily in the Old World. Adding to this is the world’s continued attempts to divide and destroy tiny Israel. All of these (the ultimate convergence) points to the conditions in which both Jesus and Paul called birth pangs.

Conclusion
In the final book of the Bible, Jesus addresses seven churches with seven letters. We understand that these were real, literal, historical churches in what was then Asia-Minor in whom John was familiar with. They were also relatively unknown. Why not a letter to the church in Rome? Or the church in Christianity’s birthplace, Jerusalem? Antioch? We also know there are other applications in these letters because of how they are constructed and arranged. They contained seven parts: the Lord’s title, a commendation, a criticism, an admonition, a call, a challenge, and a promise. Two of the churches received no criticism (Smyrna and Philadelphia), and one received no commendation (Laodicea). Also, the challenge and the promise are reversed for the last four church. For review:


  • They were real, historical churches in the 1st century

  • They had a corporate application (admonitory to all churches of all times)…i.e.…he who hath an ear, let him hear…

  • They had singular and personal applications…i.e.…admonitions and challenges to the believers

  • They had prophetic applications by the order of their selection and arrangement


Skeptics might debate that last bullet, but let’s say hypothetically that the letter to the church at Laodicea was placed anywhere other than at the end of the seven letters. If that were the case then this prophetic application wouldn’t make sense and skeptics would be correct in their rebuke of such a claim.

But because the letter to Laodicea is at the end of the letters, we can see a clear progression that also matches what we know from church history. In other words, the church ages (or epochs) can clearly be seen when we review how Christendom has unfolded around the world over these last two thousand years. Remember, Laodicea was just as real a church at the same time as Ephesus or Smyrna was. While it is not necessary to hold to seven-letter seven-epochs as the gospel truth, it is noted that throughout church history, one type of church tends to be the dominant face of Christendom.

Each of the churches unfolded in an age in which their brand (or their type) tended to dominate any other form of Christendom. There was an Ephesus era that had the Apostles who were still walking the earth. But that time came to an end when John passed on into glory. There was a Smyrna era in which the Church then (100-313AD) came under intense persecution from the Roman Empire. There was an era when the Roman Empire legalized Christianity, and thus we see the mixing of paganism into Christianity that is exemplified in Pergamum. So on and so forth. Put an another way, they unfolded individually as eras, but they continued on and overlapped, thus waning in power and influence and giving heed to the next type (or form) of church era.

At the very least, the last four letters to Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea are all still in play. Since the 1960’s, the West has rapidly digressed into antichristian territory with the onset of the Sexual Revolution, the reemergence of Eastern mysticism, embracement of socialism, and rapid increases in violence and the occult in entertainment. All of these have morally weakened societies around the Western world, and have enforced a compromise-or-die type of mentality upon western churches in particular. Thus in trying to remain relevant, we have the compromised Laodicean era who is hell-bent on making being lukewarm the hottest trend around.

All that to say this, that if these churches are in fact chronicles heralding the stages the church would go through, then it is equally reasonable to assume that they had to play out first, in order for Christ to return for His church. So while it was reasonable to assume that no sign preceded the Rapture of the Church for most of its history, we now have the luxury of hindsight and can see we are at the last stage of development in the age of the Church. It is not until the conclusion of this last Laodicean church, that John see’s the door in heaven open, and hears a voice as a trumpet call from there “Come up here!”

As one with many children and having witnessed pregnancy many times, birth pangs do not go on forever…as all births come to a moment of truth when the child arrives. This writer’s belief is that while blind imminence may have been a valid assumption for the first portion of the last two millennia, it is quickly becoming something we can no longer hide behind. Too many events are pointing to too many signs for Christians to simply shrug their shoulders’ and say who knows or who cares? It should be a call for us to wake up and wake up our brothers and sisters in Christ and to put on a sense of urgency that our blessed hope is about to be realized. Christ promised a special warning to His believers who did not bother to watch and chose to remain ignorant about His return. To the dead church at Sardis He said…

Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. Revelation 3:3

Even so, Maranatha!


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Re: Pete Garcia ~ The Rapture and 2017

Post by Jarhead on Wed Jun 14 2017, 06:18

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Re: Pete Garcia ~ The Rapture and 2017

Post by Tryphosa on Wed Jun 14 2017, 07:54

Thanks Tryph!
From the article:


As one with many children and having witnessed pregnancy many times, birth pangs do not go on forever…as all births come to a moment of truth when the child arrives. This writer’s belief is that while blind imminence may have been a valid assumption for the first portion of the last two millennia, it is quickly becoming something we can no longer hide behind. Too many events are pointing to too many signs for Christians to simply shrug their shoulders’ and say who knows or who cares? It should be a call for us to wake up and wake up our brothers and sisters in Christ and to put on a sense of urgency that our blessed hope is about to be realized. Christ promised a special warning to His believers who did not bother to watch and chose to remain ignorant about His return. To the dead church at Sardis He said…
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. Revelation 3:3
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Pete Garcia - The Hope of Glory

Post by Tryphena on Sat Sep 09 2017, 09:22

The Hope of Glory

Prophecy - Signs 
Monday, September 04, 2017 
Pete Garcia 


I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.


With September 23rd right around the corner, I found it necessary to write to you concerning the hype and the hope of the Revelation 12 sign. My intent here is not to curb your enthusiasm pertaining what may or may not be an event, but to guard it. First let me add my concern that on both sides, i.e., the militant supporters and cynical critics of this event, have wrought much division to the body of Christ. They have done this by remaining dogmatic in their opinions over a speculative event that may not pan out to be anything, or it may end up being everything. While one side lobs half-truths, the other returns fire with trolling and threats. I have tried to keep an open-mind concerning this and I would like to bring both the positive and negative points out concerning Revelation 12 and the attention it has recently gotten.


The Good
But let me begin with some positives concerning the Revelation 12 Sign “movement” if I can call it that. Anytime a passage of Scripture gets global attention, I think that is a good sign. It gets people asking questions about the Bible that they normally wouldn’t. Furthermore, it gets Christians back in their Bibles acting like they should have been, like Bereans. It also directs people’s attention to the return of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Inevitably, this will, even if unintentionally, wake some people up from the slumber this world has blinded them with. Lastly, much good scholarship concerning the doctrine of the Church, the Rapture, and timing in general has come because of this.


The Bad
The negatives than are that some will be convinced that something will absolutely have to happen on September 23rd. If September 23rd comes and goes without anything major or significant changing, many who planted all their hopes and dreams on that date will become disillusioned and drift away from the faith. Those who are not Christians will inevitably use this as simply one more thing they can pin on those “wacky” Christians who are waiting for a Messiah who will never come. I believe that Revelation 12 movement may only further validate the scoffing as found in 2 Peter 3:3-4 by fueling the skeptics to ask “Where is the promise of His coming?”


The Bottom Line
Pinning all of our Rapture credibility and our hopes on a specific date (for whatever reason) is both foolish and irresponsible. I understand that those serious about this date are not calling for a Rapture, but there are some who are. No matter how solid our evidence seems, our God sees the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:9-10), so His ways may not seem logical to us at the present, no matter how much we want Him to conform to our patterns and logic. Secondly, relying on extra biblical sources cannot and should not be substituted for clear, biblical teachings on any given subject, no matter how compelling they may seem.


Assessment
So with those issues out of my way, there has been much said by both the proponents and opponents concerning the September 23rd Revelation 12 issue. Even though I am not a believer in this event per se, I find myself supporting its claims more than denying them, simply because there has been such poor scholarship done in critiquing it on the side of our prophecy ‘experts.’ Some of the false charges have been:
[list="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: georgia,"]
[*]All supporters of the September 23rd event view this as the date of the Rapture

[*]No legitimate bible scholars view Revelation 12 as a pre-tribulation passage

[*]No man knows the day or hour, thus, the Revelation 12 proponents are all ‘false prophets’

[*]Revelation 12 is in the middle of the book of Revelation, thus cannot point to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture passage

[*]The child in Revelation can only be Christ

[/list]
I would like to address these point by point (in the same order) to clarify some of the misconceptions put out there by well-meaning theologians, pastors, and media personalities.
[list="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: georgia,"]
[*]None of the serious supporters of the Revelation 12 have stated that the Rapture will definitively happen on September 23rd or 24th. Some of them have added that the convergence of all the events together makes a strong case being then (or even in 2017), but none are telling folks to sell their things, move to the mountains, and wait for that day. That was what Harold Camping did, and I haven’t seen anyone in this group with any clout do that so far.

[*]John N. Darby, Harry Ironside, Michael Svigel, Chuck Missler, and other bible scholars have held views that Revelation 12 is a strong Pre-Trib passage as well as the child also being the church. This view is not outside the mainstream.

[*]While I agree with the general statement that “no man knows the day or hour,” I also have to balance that against another later statement by Jesus in [url=https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Rev 3.3]Revelation 3:3[/url], in which He holds the Church accountable for knowing the hour of His coming.

  1. In context, when Jesus explained the Olivet Discourse, He answered truthfully that ‘no man’ knew. At that point of time, in His incarnation, this was not yet revealed to Him.
  2. We then see post-Calvary, resurrection, and ascension that the Father gave the Son the Revelation of things to come, which makes it all too reasonable to believe that Jesus was told the when and how ([url=https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Rev. 1.1]Rev. 1:1[/url]) because He is the ([url=https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Rev. 1.8]Rev. 1:8[/url]).
  3. This, in my opinion, strengthens the argument for the seven churches of Revelation 2-3 representing the seven stages (or eras) the church would progress through.



[*]Revelation 12 is nestled in the middle of Revelation. That does not, however, mean that all the events are nestled snuggly in the middle of the 70th Week. Rev 12 (like Rev 11 and 13) are parenthetical insertions which span all or part of the entire seven years. Furthermore, Revelation 12 seems to be outlining events in a corporate manner that parallel Christ’s first coming (which were singular). For instance:

  1. The woman singularly was Mary. In Revelation 12, she is Israel corporately.
  2. The child singularly was Christ. Corporately “he” is the Church (i.e., His head and body)
  3. The dragon singularly was personified as Herod. Corporately it is Satan and his entities (or the beast system)


[/list]


This appears to make much more sense in keeping with the “prophetic” or “future” nature of Revelation (Revelation 1:1, 3, 19, 4:1-2). In other words, this isn’t simply a rehashing (or historical rendering) or Christ’s life, death, resurrection, and ascension, but something much more intriguing.
[list="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: georgia,"]
[*]Opponents of the Revelation 12 sign openly scoff at the notion that the Child/child in Revelation 12 could also represent the Church.

  1. The child in Rev 12 is differentiated between huios (masculine) to teknon (neuter) who did not ascend but was ‘harpazo’. From my understanding of [url=https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Luke 24.51]Luke 24:51[/url], Jesus was anapherō (carried up, not snatched up) to heaven.
  2. If it was meant to convey Christ here in verse 12:5, why use harpazo if that is not what actually happened? This is why I believe John was told to use this particular phrasing.
  3. The Church is also promised to rule with a ‘rod of iron’ ([url=https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Rev. 2.26-27]Rev. 2:26-27[/url]). And as Christ is the head, and the Church is the body, it is not inconceivable that we also will rule in some capacity as Scripture indicates.


[/list]


Conclusion
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. Matthew 24:36
This verse has been the champion of anti-date setters for millennia and for good cause. I believe it has tempered the tendencies of believers who are living through incredibly difficult times to not want to jump after every sign and symbol as their ticket out of here. My main issue with continuing to use this as the catch-all verse is that later, revelatory passages seem to conflict with it. Scripture as given to the Apostle Paul (the mysteries revealed) and even Jesus Himself seem to indicate that we should know the hour and the day.


But first, notice what Jesus doesn’t say; “But of the day and hour no one knows or will ever know.” The passage was written in the present-tense, and thus seems to indicate the truth of what was known at that point in time. In His human form, Jesus rightly stated that “no man knows” because, at that time (context here), He was both fully God and fully man. But in His humanity, He willingly and obediently limited Himself in His power of omniscience to trust fully in His Father’s plan. Just as we humans can’t see into the future, it stands to reason, that God becoming a man, would limit Himself in like-manner so as to be tested as we are in all things (Hebrews 4:15). Yet, He did it without sinning. Doubt is intricately tied to not knowing, which as James 1:6 and Hebrews 11:1 point out, destroys faith. Jesus demonstrated perfect faith in the Father, which would by necessity mean He limited Himself in what He knew if He were to be tested in every way as we mortals are.


But as indicated in Revelation 1:1, Jesus was given the Revelation at some point after His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. This was what the Apostle John, imprisoned on the isle of Patmos in 95AD, was witness to. In His seven letters, Jesus tells the church at Sardis this:
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. Revelation 3:3


As Robert Breaker academically points out in his great YouTube videos, the opposite of not knowing what hour He will come, is knowing the hour He will come. This then supports Hebrews 10:25 in that we will see the Day approaching. Well, if we truly had no way of knowing anything concerning our Lord’s return, both Rev. 3:3 and Hebrews 10:25 couldn’t be true. How can we see the Day approaching if we had no way of knowing what or when that Day was? The Apostle Paul includes a similar theme in 1st Thessalonians 5:1-6:


But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6


The Messiah (Jesus Christ) was prophesied in the Old Testament of having two comings. We know that in hindsight, but the first century Jews mistakenly believed that it was only one coming. They also believed that when the Christ did come, He would immediately usher in the Kingdom in that same arrival. Even Jesus’s disciples didn’t fully understand this after all was said and done (Acts 1:6-7).
The First Coming was explicitly given to the Jews in the 70 Weeks of Daniel prophecy. This narrowed it to the year of His entry into the city of Jerusalem to which we know as Palm Sunday (Luke 19:41-44). Were the Pharisees and Sadducees wrong for not recognizing the time of their visitation? Absolutely, Jesus held them accountable for not knowing (Matthew 16:1-4). Likewise, I believe, given the number of warnings and admonitions to watch and be ready in the New Testament, the Church will also be held responsible for being caught off guard. Why watch if we don’t know what we are watching for? Watchfulness has both a singular and corporate application:
[list="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: georgia,"]
[*]We as individuals don’t know the time of our own death, so we must always be prepared to meet the Lord

[*]We as a body of believers, must watch to recognize the season of our Lord’s return

[/list]
While it is impossible to know exactly when the Rapture will occur, I believe that the compounding nature of mankind’s sin (there is a fullness coming), the convergence of prophetic events, and the timing in relation to Israel’s rebirth as a nation, all must be taking into account. I also believe that although we won’t know the specific day of the Rapture, we should recognize the season. Furthermore, as Christ literally fulfilled the Spring Feasts in order, it stands to reason that He will also fulfill the Fall Feasts literally in order as well. How the feasts tie into the Church’s departure, is up for debate.


To me, it would make sense that He either return for His Church in 2017 or 2018 at the latest, given the significance of the specific timing relating to Israel’s return as a nation (parable of the fig tree). Then again, I am not God so His ways and thinking trump my understanding. He may have some other design that is more in keeping with the fullness of time than anything I can conceive. With that said, if you are a believer in Jesus Christ, we should be excited about the soon return of our Lord. Given our current state of affairs both here and abroad, things will not continue on indefinitely. As Pastor J.D. Farag once noted, our world has a shelf-life.


So we temper our hope against the hype by staying in the word of God and testing everything by it. While the Revelation 12 movement has many positive aspects to it, like with everything else, we must put it to the test. And it may be that September 23rd comes and goes, but that should not diminish our hope in the Lord’s soon return. My hope was never in a date, but in a Person, the God-Man Jesus Christ. The hope we have was made possible by Jesus Christ, who redeems us from sin and death. We are not simply being saved to be saved, But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:4-7)


Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near. Luke 21:28



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Re: Pete Garcia ~ The Rapture and 2017

Post by Tryphena on Sat Sep 09 2017, 09:26

Is disappointing Pete seems to have shifted and not so much supports the Revelation 12 Sign, calls it a 'movement.'  He removed himself from the front line to way back in "the wait & see"
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The Hope of Glory ~ Pete Garcia

Post by Tryphosa on Sat Sep 09 2017, 15:39

Peter, Peter, did you just deny the Revelation 12 Great Sign thrice?

"But let me begin with some positives concerning the Revelation 12 Sign “movement” if I can call it that."



"So with those issues out of my way, there has been much said by both the proponents and opponents concerning the September 23rd Revelation 12 issue. Even though I am not a believer in this event per se, I find myself supporting its claims more than denying them, "



"While the Revelation 12 movement has many positive aspects to it, like with everything else, we must put it to the test."

Oh, I see you said," I find myself supporting its claims more than denying them", so perhaps more of a doubting Thomas than a denying Peter?
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Pete Garcia - Signs

Post by Tryphena on Tue Sep 26 2017, 07:28

After the September 23 Alignment (Revelation 12:1-2 Sign), Pete's commentary Signs posted on NRD

http://narrowroaddepot.forumotion.com/t743-pete-garcia-signs#8883
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Re: Pete Garcia ~ The Rapture and 2017

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