Greek Study - Man Child

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Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Tryphena on Fri May 05 2017, 19:09



(I wrote out the text & times for study)




2:50 Quotes Michael Svigel...
"I argue that the symbol of the male child in Revelation 12:5 is best identified as the body of Christ, the church and the the child's catching up to God and His throne is best identified as the catching up of the body of Christ elsewhere described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17."

3:25 The man child is Christ, you only see it in the Greek

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child (Huios) [Strong G5207], who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Greek Huios - a masculine noun, Strongs G5207

4:25 Huios always refers to Christ, not to the church
Huios is found in
Son of man 87x
Son of God  49x
Son of David 15x
My Beloved Son 7x
Only Begotten Son 3x

Gives examples of the use Huios...

Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son (Huios), and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son (Huios), in whom I am well pleased.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son (Huios), that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

6:09 Never is the church referred to as Huios, only Christ is.


6:20 Back to Revelation 12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child (Teknon) as soon as it was born.

7:00 Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child (Teknon) was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

7:25 Teknon means offspring, a neuter noun - Strong's G5043
Teknon is found 99x in the New Testament
Child - Teknon 77x
Son - Teknon 21x
daughter - Teknon 1x

7:35 Huios is masculine, always refers to Christ.
Teknon is never used for the title of Christ.
Teknon is always used for His people who believe in Christ.

8:20 examples of Teknon
Matthew 9:2
And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son (Teknon), be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. 


Mark 10:24
And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children (Teknon), how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!


John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons (Teknon) of God, even to them that believe on his name:


Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children (Teknon) of God:


1 John 3:1 & 2
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons (Teknon) of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Beloved, now are we the sons (Teknon) of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


10:30 Teknon is used for the believers in Christ.   Huios is used for Christ alone.


10:50 Revelation 12:4-5
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman (Israel) which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child (Teknon, the church) as soon as it was born.
And she brought forth a man child (Huios, who is Christ), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child (Teknon, the church) was caught up (Harpazo) unto God, and to his throne.


11:40  "This is the clearest perspective on the rapture of the church."
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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Jarhead on Sat May 06 2017, 05:03

The Rev 12 passage was considered the lynchpin for the pre-trib rapture of the church by earlier theologians who rescued the argument (and get blamed for inventing it) from 1,500 years of church-state dogma that refuted the entire 2nd Coming.

Truth always wins!
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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Tryphena on Sat May 06 2017, 07:05

Jarhead wrote:The Rev 12 passage was considered the lynchpin for the pre-trib rapture of the church by earlier theologians who rescued the argument (and get blamed for inventing it) from 1,500 years of church-state dogma that refuted the entire 2nd Coming.

Truth always wins!
 

Seems when pre-tribbers discuss, blog, write articles, put their findings on youtube, etc. of course they use their Bibles, but they often use their Strong's as well.

more...
Rev 12:2 - And she being with child...  child here is Strong's G1064 - gastor -"be with child"

Rev 12:5 - And she brought forth a man child ... man here is Strong's G730 - arsen - male, 
child is Strong's G5207 - Huios - son

It is agreed among scholars the woman is Israel & the dragon is satan.


Revelation 12: 1-5
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

And she being with child (gastor - pregnant) cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon (satan), having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon (satan) stood before the woman (Israel) which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child (Teknon - child, the church) as soon as it was born.

And she brought forth a man (arren - male) child (Huios - Christ) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child (Teknon - child, the church) was caught up (Harpazo) unto God, and to his throne.


From Strong's, under the G5207 Huios entry...
(3) The Apostle John does not use huios; "son," of the believer; he reserves that title for the Lord; but he does use teknon, "child," as in his Gospel...
(E) Teknon (5043) gives prominence to physical and outward aspects of Parentage.
(F) Huios (5207) gives prominence to the inward, ethical, legal, aspects of parentage.
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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Tryphosa on Mon May 08 2017, 09:38

Thanks Tryph, thorough and complete study!
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Revelation 12 And The Year 2017

Post by Tryphosa on Mon May 08 2017, 09:45

Thought this was a good, primer study. includes huios and Teknon as well.

Revelation 12 And The Year 2017


I want to start this post by stating right up front that I am not a date setter when it comes to events. However, I invite you to examine this on your own and prayerfully come to your own conclusions as the Spirit of God speaks to you……
Revelation 12: 1-7-—And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

 
On September 23rd, 2017, an unprecedented astronomical (note: I said astronomical , NOT astrological)  alignment will appear in the sky over Israel that seemingly fulfills a literal word-for-word fulfillment of Revelation 12:1-5.  The passage describes a heavenly sign where a pregnant woman appears covered in the sun, with the moon at her feet, and crowned with 12 stars. The woman gives birth to a male child who is “caught up” to God.  A literal reading of the text tells us seven things that must all be true for a proper and complete fulfillment of the prophecy:

1. It is a heavenly sign, not an earthly occurrence.


http://bibleprophecyfortoday.com/2017/03/05/revelation-12-and-the-year-2017/
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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Jarhead on Mon May 08 2017, 16:56

Tryphena wrote:
Seems when pre-tribbers discuss, blog, write articles, put their findings on youtube, etc. of course they use their Bibles, but they often use their Strong's as well.


Yes, score one for our side.  It is all about the precision of the Word and our taking seriously WHAT is said.  And to do it properly, it requires going to the original languages!

It is much more difficult to 'argue' against a clear, backed-up explanation.
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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Askakido on Mon May 08 2017, 22:35

The Rev 12:2 KJV phrase, "she being with child cried", comes from the Greek's, " εν γαστρι εχουσα κραζει "  I break this down as:


εν ==> "en" , a preposition, "in, at, with, or by" usually.

γαστρι ==> "gastri" Robertson's Morphology gives this as noun dative singular feminine. 

     Strong's definition of its root word, "gaster", has the meaning of "Of uncertain derivation; the stomach; by analogy the matrix; figuratively a gourmand:..." 

     This word literally does not mean 'a child'.  In that one meaning is "the matrix" this is often understood when in relationship with a woman, is seen as "the womb", but "the matrix" can also infer the entire abdomen, the matrix of the stomach, intestines, womb.   The 'feminine' gender ending feeds back to some female noun, and a singular noun.  This ending is often translated as an implied pronoun, 'she' and by context of verse 1 the singular feminine is " γυνη ", "gunhe", "a woman", in this case 'the woman' of verse 1.

εχουσα ==> "echousa" Robert's has this a a verb present tense, active voice, mood participle, nominative case (the subject or predicate nominative,) singular, feminine.
    
     I note that sometimes a active voiced verb can be translated as an English gerund, instead of 'to hold' or the verb 'hold' it becomes that action of 'holding'.
    
     Strong's G2192 form of the word has the basic meaning of: "to hold (used in very various applications, literally or figuratively, direct or remote; such as possession, ability, contiguity, relation, or condition.)"

κραζει ==> "krazei" Robert's morphology has this as a verb, present tense, active voice, indicative mood, third person, singular.  As this third person is non-gendered, neither masculine in gender (lingusitic gender that is) nor feminine in gender, it can be translated as "he, she, or it" depending on the fuller context.
    
     Strong's word form G2896 "karzo", shows it as a verb; "properly to 'croak' (as raven) or scream, that is (generally) to call aloud (shriek, exclaim, intreat)... " 
    

     If one looks at a part of the KJV Rev 12:4 "... and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born... "  one does get a certain sense of out right panic and terror.
The deeper dynamic sense of that passage of verse 2 is in this sense:

"And she holding in her stomach, shrieks with labor pains... " 


The sense is deep enough that one might even reasonably see that the baby's head is really close to crowning, ready to come out, and there is this seven headed beast of a red dragon at her feet just waiting for the child to fully come out so it can snatch it up as it to immediately kill it.  Perhaps even more intensely as if that dragon is desiring to do a form of paritial birth abortion on that baby.

Still in the actual words of the Greek there is no 'child' in there in verse 2.  In fact the more denoted meaning of the Greek, "gaster" is the stomach, the belly, or the womb, and not the child in that "stomach", "belly" or womb -- but that belly itself.  She is grabbing her belly holding it in, as if perhaps to try and in a futile effort to delay the birth.  I am sure the women here can really appreciate what this verse is fully and more dynamically showing in this vision, than can be had by the more watered down KJV translators' approach.  And 'gaster' is not 'being pregnant' either... but rather it is that which is pregnant, the belly, the womb.


So, I find reason not to use the word, "child," as a translation of 'gaster' of verse 2.  It if meant 'child' more than likely it would have used the Greek word, teknon, in that place.

I shared those so some can see the dynamics and even the drama that is there in the Greek (speaking of verse 2), as to me the KJV and some others dim it down or water it down a bit.

Also, I personally do appreciate how some here like to use the ( )'s and [ ]'s and { }'s to show their own derived understanding of certain terms and what they are being applied to and their comments.

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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Jarhead on Mon May 08 2017, 23:24

Askakido wrote:
I shared those so some can see the dynamics and even the drama that is there in the Greek (speaking of verse 2), as to me the KJV and some others dim it down or water it down a bit.

Also, I personally do appreciate how some here like to use the ( )'s and [ ]'s and { }'s to show their own derived understanding of certain terms and what they are being applied to and their comments.

Thanks for the thoughts on this passage, Ask!  ^5! 

Yanno? 
The KJV translators did a commendable job on their translation, and I have no doubt that the Lord had a full hand in things 500 years back (as always!).

But I'm inclined to forgive them on this point.  On the 'surface' this is a highly technical point (which certainly parses out the discrepancies of a loose translation) and the prevalent assumption on the interpretation here has for most of the Church age, been Messiah ascending to Heaven ~ not the deliverance of the Church.

But as always, line upon line and precept upon precept, not to mention the increased understanding nearer the 2nd Coming, we are blessed to have increased resolving power through the lens of interpretation.

I too, appreciate you taking the time to more fully amplify the birthing emergency portrayed in this passage.  Per this passage and Isaiah 66:7 about the Woman giving birth BEFORE the pains of labor, I get a sad picture of a woman going through labor (Jacob's Trouble) yet having empty arms for her effort.

Israel's labor is going to be wicked, indeed.

Thanks again, Ask!


Last edited by Jarhead on Mon May 08 2017, 23:26; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Askakido on Tue May 09 2017, 03:55

Jarhead wrote:
Askakido wrote:
I shared those so some can see the dynamics and even the drama that is there in the Greek (speaking of verse 2), as to me the KJV and some others dim it down or water it down a bit.

Also, I personally do appreciate how some here like to use the ( )'s and [ ]'s and { }'s to show their own derived understanding of certain terms and what they are being applied to and their comments.

Thanks for the thoughts on this passage, Ask!  ^5! 

Yanno? 
The KJV translators did a commendable job on their translation, and I have no doubt that the Lord had a full hand in things 500 years back (as always!).

But I'm inclined to forgive them on this point.  On the 'surface' this is a highly technical point (which certainly parses out the discrepancies of a loose translation) and the prevalent assumption on the interpretation here has for most of the Church age, been Messiah ascending to Heaven ~ not the deliverance of the Church.

But as always, line upon line and precept upon precept, not to mention the increased understanding nearer the 2nd Coming, we are blessed to have increased resolving power through the lens of interpretation.

I too, appreciate you taking the time to more fully amplify the birthing emergency portrayed in this passage.  Per this passage and Isaiah 66:7 about the Woman giving birth BEFORE the pains of labor, I get a sad picture of a woman going through labor (Jacob's Trouble) yet having empty arms for her effort.

Israel's labor is going to be wicked, indeed.

Thanks again, Ask!

Oh, I totally agree there. it was the best that they could do, and they were very sincere, and even in places inspired, especially in handling the English translations out of the Hebrew of the Oracles of the Old Testament.  Where would we be without their work.  And definitely forgivable.

And yes, highly technical, and efforts at times to get more technical to tighten up what might otherwise be a more 'loose interpreation".

Rev 12:5's use (as in the KJV) as "a man child" is also interesting in the Greek texts construct of " υιον αρρενα  " could be renderes as a "male son", which would be redundant, so the KJV and others decided to select a different option of the various meanings of those two words, to have it be less redundant as "man child". 

Furthermore, no where in Revelation Twelve are we shown the Woman ever ascending into the heavens... no where.  She is said to "flee into the wilderness" not "flee into heaven". And Rev 12:14-17 we do not get shown that she is ascending to heaven. -- just an interesting point.

As to the identity of "the Woman", I am still reserving my own conclusions as to her overall idenity, though I tend much towards it being an "Israel", but then have to ask myself, "Just which Israel would that be referring to, given all the various meanings and applications of that name through the entire Bible?"  Deciding quickly that it is not speaking of the man, Jacob/Israel.

But then having spent over 120 hours in study of the Book of Hosea and the figurative use of a named "Israel" and her sister being named as "Judah" I take pause and reflect on those figures of speech.  And ask myself if there are not likewise two women "Israel", one unfaithful to her husband and the other that is faithful to her husband.  In that I can then see perhaps that the Woman in Revelation Twevle being "Faithful Israel", while the other women in chapter 13 being the one that is "Unfaithful Israel".  Just a 'theory' that I have not yet fully put into a testable hypothesis.

And who would be "Faithful Israel", or better said, "the Faithful of Israel"?  All those that accepted or accept Jesus as the Messiah of Israel.  If that be the case then "the Unfaithful of Israel" would be all of those that denied or are yet denying Jesus as the Messiah of Israel.  In that case these Unfaithful Israel would yet be 'awhoring after" other gods, such as those of Babylon of antiquity, and even those gods of the Chaldean Astrologers.  As it would stand then, those of the Unfaithful of Israel would have mind-sets (spirits) of an anti-christ according to the criteria set forth in 1st and 2nd John.  Even Paul when he was yet Saul had been of such a spirit of an anti-christ, but he repented.

As to Signs in the Starry Skies Heaven.  People need to consider this:

2Ki 20:8-11 KJV
(8) And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, "What shall be the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of the LORD the third day?"  

(9)  And Isaiah said, "This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?"  

(10)  And Hezekiah answered, "It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees."  

(11)  And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

Even Hezekiah was fully aware of the Pro-grade (foreward) movement of the Sun in the Sky, the astronomers of his day and even just the common man knew that motion very well, enough to even be able to prediction solar eclipses, but for the Sun to go Retro-grade (backwards) was apparently something never known before.  Hezekiah did not accept the predictions of the astronomers of his day as a Sign from God... and neither should we.

There is a celestial heavenly sign as indicated by a Sun Dial.  Try to imagine just how that would work in Astronomy, Celestial Mechanics, and even in Astro-dynamics, try to imagine what that would have looked like if you were viewing the Skies at that event.  Neither Astrology nor Astronomy know what to do with a Retro-grade Sun in the sky.  Astro-Dynamics could but would be missing the prime mobile, the one controlling space-ship Earth or space ship Sun, or both.

So, I find the Sept 23th, 2017 astronomical alignments to be a bit of a weird thing to say is a Heavenly Sign.  Just something I ponder over.

Oh, and I continue to be thankful for all your prayers for me, especially in helping to recover from that stroke, and vision problems.. they had been a severe prick in the flesh and still somewhat are, but I can do much better now, Praise God, and thank you all for your patience and concern, and prayers.

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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Jarhead on Tue May 09 2017, 07:56

My

Israel gave birth to the Church ~ remember, the Apostles were all surprised that Gentiles could be equally saved!

I'm thinking that 'Israel' is corporate Israel.  There are only three 'races' in the world since Pentecost:  Jew, Gentile and Believers.  During the Church Age, Jews that believe, while yet Jewish, fall into the Believer category and will be raptured in the Harpazo.

Immediately after the Rapture there will (imo) be more than a few (144,000?) Hebrew converts.  The Time of Jacob's Trouble is the remaining 7 years given to corporate Israel per


Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."



Corporate Israel, which is 100% unbelieving prior to the Rapture undergoes a 7-year process of becoming faithful, at the end of which they cry "Baruch Haba B'Shem Adonai!"



A side note:  Since the Babylonian Captivity the Jews have not had the idolatry problems that plagued earlier generations.  Granted, the religion devolved into a works-based affair, but they weren't, by and large, sacrificing in the groves or tossing their children into Molach's arms.



As for the Great Heavenly Sign, thanks to computers we all have a capacity to be equal to the Magi in astronomy.  (Not astrology!)  God Himself created and named each and every star and planet He hung in the Heavens.  He created them for signs and seasons.  That fact remains, even though we are not inclined as previous generations to look upon the stars or use them for signs or seasons.


The constellations are still named and positioned as they have from pre-history with nearly all cultures identifying and defining them (meaning of star names) identically.  All 12 of the ecliptic constellations (Mazaroth/Zodiac) and their three decans tell the story of the Redeemer.  As E.W. Bullinger points out, the diagrams/shapes of the star patterns did not name the constellations, but rather the STORY created the associations.  Those 'stories' through the constellations tell the Gospel story in the stars.


Remember, the night sky was all there was to look at and speak about for night time entertainment in ancient cultures. (No tv, iPads, radios, etc.)  The story was passed down from generation to generation so that they would be without excuse and believe the Hope that was promised in Genesis 3 ~ the silent speech of the stars going forth night after night.


Because the stars' ancient names proclaim the Biblical meaning, I believe the 'original' story was given by God (Who named them in the 1st place) to Adam and Eve, who then passed the story on to their progeny.  That knowledge has been retained through the Flood, Tower of Babel and modernity, and although faded, it remains.  The Gospel cannot be denied by anyone.


For study on this, I recommend E.W. Bullinger's book The Witness of the Stars.


If you're more inclined to contemporary video, Mark Correll has a 14 part study on the Gospel in the Stars, starting with this video:


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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Tryphosa on Tue May 09 2017, 10:44

Thanks for the input Askakiddo and Jarhead, one gleans from your discussions!  
Prayer sent up for you Aska as well.

My child like faith grabbed my attention on this Revelation 12 journey.  This time period will only last a short while and we will know the results of the Great Sign.  Would not want to miss this journey for the world!

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,


who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.


Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3


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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Askakido on Tue May 09 2017, 15:06

I first read E.W. Bullinger's book The Witness of the Stars, in 1976 upon which I bought the book in softback.  I continue to read it and study it -- I still find it curious -- though I have many issues with his main thesis.

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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Jarhead on Tue May 09 2017, 16:32

He drew on and gives credit to another author (Seiss, Gospel in the Stars, published a decade or so before his own work.) for having done in this regard.

I enjoyed the book for the knowledge of the constellations as depicted in the Mazaroth ~ that which has been corrupted and lost to the modern day world.

Every night I gaze Heavenward and know the Creator did more than just 'make' them and set them in motion.

Learning the stories of the constellations in their yearly path made me feel a more solid kinship with all other souls who have ever looked in the night sky and sought restoration with God ~ the message is there; I just never knew it.  Our parents forgot to teach us.
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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Tryphosa on Tue May 09 2017, 21:34

Askakido wrote:The Rev 12:2 KJV phrase, "she being with child cried", comes from the Greek's, " εν γαστρι εχουσα κραζει "  I break this down as:


εν ==> "en" , a preposition, "in, at, with, or by" usually.

γαστρι ==> "gastri" Robertson's Morphology gives this as noun dative singular feminine. 

     Strong's definition of its root word, "gaster", has the meaning of "Of uncertain derivation; the stomach; by analogy the matrix; figuratively a gourmand:..." 

     This word literally does not mean 'a child'.  In that one meaning is "the matrix" this is often understood when in relationship with a woman, is seen as "the womb", but "the matrix" can also infer the entire abdomen, the matrix of the stomach, intestines, womb.   The 'feminine' gender ending feeds back to some female noun, and a singular noun.  This ending is often translated as an implied pronoun, 'she' and by context of verse 1 the singular feminine is " γυνη ", "gunhe", "a woman", in this case 'the woman' of verse 1.

εχουσα ==> "echousa" Robert's has this a a verb present tense, active voice, mood participle, nominative case (the subject or predicate nominative,) singular, feminine.
    
     I note that sometimes a active voiced verb can be translated as an English gerund, instead of 'to hold' or the verb 'hold' it becomes that action of 'holding'.
    
     Strong's G2192 form of the word has the basic meaning of: "to hold (used in very various applications, literally or figuratively, direct or remote; such as possession, ability, contiguity, relation, or condition.)"

κραζει ==> "krazei" Robert's morphology has this as a verb, present tense, active voice, indicative mood, third person, singular.  As this third person is non-gendered, neither masculine in gender (lingusitic gender that is) nor feminine in gender, it can be translated as "he, she, or it" depending on the fuller context.
    
     Strong's word form G2896 "karzo", shows it as a verb; "properly to 'croak' (as raven) or scream, that is (generally) to call aloud (shriek, exclaim, intreat)... " 
    

     If one looks at a part of the KJV Rev 12:4 "... and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born... "  one does get a certain sense of out right panic and terror.
The deeper dynamic sense of that passage of verse 2 is in this sense:

"And she holding in her stomach, shrieks with labor pains... " 


The sense is deep enough that one might even reasonably see that the baby's head is really close to crowning, ready to come out, and there is this seven headed beast of a red dragon at her feet just waiting for the child to fully come out so it can snatch it up as it to immediately kill it.  Perhaps even more intensely as if that dragon is desiring to do a form of paritial birth abortion on that baby.

Still in the actual words of the Greek there is no 'child' in there in verse 2.  In fact the more denoted meaning of the Greek, "gaster" is the stomach, the belly, or the womb, and not the child in that "stomach", "belly" or womb -- but that belly itself.  She is grabbing her belly holding it in, as if perhaps to try and in a futile effort to delay the birth.  I am sure the women here can really appreciate what this verse is fully and more dynamically showing in this vision, than can be had by the more watered down KJV translators' approach.  And 'gaster' is not 'being pregnant' either... but rather it is that which is pregnant, the belly, the womb.


So, I find reason not to use the word, "child," as a translation of 'gaster' of verse 2.  It if meant 'child' more than likely it would have used the Greek word, teknon, in that place.

I shared those so some can see the dynamics and even the drama that is there in the Greek (speaking of verse 2), as to me the KJV and some others dim it down or water it down a bit.

Also, I personally do appreciate how some here like to use the ( )'s and [ ]'s and { }'s to show their own derived understanding of certain terms and what they are being applied to and their comments.
Aska, your post brings the vision alive.
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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Tryphosa on Tue May 09 2017, 21:35

Askakido wrote:
Jarhead wrote:
Askakido wrote:
I shared those so some can see the dynamics and even the drama that is there in the Greek (speaking of verse 2), as to me the KJV and some others dim it down or water it down a bit.

Also, I personally do appreciate how some here like to use the ( )'s and [ ]'s and { }'s to show their own derived understanding of certain terms and what they are being applied to and their comments.

Thanks for the thoughts on this passage, Ask!  ^5! 

Yanno? 
The KJV translators did a commendable job on their translation, and I have no doubt that the Lord had a full hand in things 500 years back (as always!).

But I'm inclined to forgive them on this point.  On the 'surface' this is a highly technical point (which certainly parses out the discrepancies of a loose translation) and the prevalent assumption on the interpretation here has for most of the Church age, been Messiah ascending to Heaven ~ not the deliverance of the Church.

But as always, line upon line and precept upon precept, not to mention the increased understanding nearer the 2nd Coming, we are blessed to have increased resolving power through the lens of interpretation.

I too, appreciate you taking the time to more fully amplify the birthing emergency portrayed in this passage.  Per this passage and Isaiah 66:7 about the Woman giving birth BEFORE the pains of labor, I get a sad picture of a woman going through labor (Jacob's Trouble) yet having empty arms for her effort.

Israel's labor is going to be wicked, indeed.

Thanks again, Ask!

Oh, I totally agree there. it was the best that they could do, and they were very sincere, and even in places inspired, especially in handling the English translations out of the Hebrew of the Oracles of the Old Testament.  Where would we be without their work.  And definitely forgivable.

And yes, highly technical, and efforts at times to get more technical to tighten up what might otherwise be a more 'loose interpreation".

Rev 12:5's use (as in the KJV) as "a man child" is also interesting in the Greek texts construct of " υιον αρρενα  " could be renderes as a "male son", which would be redundant, so the KJV and others decided to select a different option of the various meanings of those two words, to have it be less redundant as "man child". 

Furthermore, no where in Revelation Twelve are we shown the Woman ever ascending into the heavens... no where.  She is said to "flee into the wilderness" not "flee into heaven". And Rev 12:14-17 we do not get shown that she is ascending to heaven. -- just an interesting point.

As to the identity of "the Woman", I am still reserving my own conclusions as to her overall idenity, though I tend much towards it being an "Israel", but then have to ask myself, "Just which Israel would that be referring to, given all the various meanings and applications of that name through the entire Bible?"  Deciding quickly that it is not speaking of the man, Jacob/Israel.

But then having spent over 120 hours in study of the Book of Hosea and the figurative use of a named "Israel" and her sister being named as "Judah" I take pause and reflect on those figures of speech.  And ask myself if there are not likewise two women "Israel", one unfaithful to her husband and the other that is faithful to her husband.  In that I can then see perhaps that the Woman in Revelation Twevle being "Faithful Israel", while the other women in chapter 13 being the one that is "Unfaithful Israel".  Just a 'theory' that I have not yet fully put into a testable hypothesis.

And who would be "Faithful Israel", or better said, "the Faithful of Israel"?  All those that accepted or accept Jesus as the Messiah of Israel.  If that be the case then "the Unfaithful of Israel" would be all of those that denied or are yet denying Jesus as the Messiah of Israel.  In that case these Unfaithful Israel would yet be 'awhoring after" other gods, such as those of Babylon of antiquity, and even those gods of the Chaldean Astrologers.  As it would stand then, those of the Unfaithful of Israel would have mind-sets (spirits) of an anti-christ according to the criteria set forth in 1st and 2nd John.  Even Paul when he was yet Saul had been of such a spirit of an anti-christ, but he repented.

As to Signs in the Starry Skies Heaven.  People need to consider this:

2Ki 20:8-11 KJV
(8) And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, "What shall be the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of the LORD the third day?"  

(9)  And Isaiah said, "This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?"  

(10)  And Hezekiah answered, "It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees."  

(11)  And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

Even Hezekiah was fully aware of the Pro-grade (foreward) movement of the Sun in the Sky, the astronomers of his day and even just the common man knew that motion very well, enough to even be able to prediction solar eclipses, but for the Sun to go Retro-grade (backwards) was apparently something never known before.  Hezekiah did not accept the predictions of the astronomers of his day as a Sign from God... and neither should we.

There is a celestial heavenly sign as indicated by a Sun Dial.  Try to imagine just how that would work in Astronomy, Celestial Mechanics, and even in Astro-dynamics, try to imagine what that would have looked like if you were viewing the Skies at that event.  Neither Astrology nor Astronomy know what to do with a Retro-grade Sun in the sky.  Astro-Dynamics could but would be missing the prime mobile, the one controlling space-ship Earth or space ship Sun, or both.

So, I find the Sept 23th, 2017 astronomical alignments to be a bit of a weird thing to say is a Heavenly Sign.  Just something I ponder over.

Oh, and I continue to be thankful for all your prayers for me, especially in helping to recover from that stroke, and vision problems.. they had been a severe prick in the flesh and still somewhat are, but I can do much better now, Praise God, and thank you all for your patience and concern, and prayers.

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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Askakido on Tue May 09 2017, 21:40

Jarhead wrote:He drew on and gives credit to another author (Seiss, Gospel in the Stars, published a decade or so before his own work.) for having done in this regard.
Am wonder, He?  Bullinger's or Correll's work?

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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Jarhead on Tue May 09 2017, 21:57

Askakido wrote:
Jarhead wrote:He drew on and gives credit to another author (Seiss, Gospel in the Stars, published a decade or so before his own work.) for having done in this regard.
Am wonder, He?  Bullinger's or Correll's work?

Apologizies for lack of clarity.

Bullinger credited a previous author (Gospel in the Stars) for work done in the topic of the Mazaroth.  I originally thought I recalled his mention of a woman, but by looking up the Gospel in the Stars, I found Seiss.

Bullinger and Seiss were 19th century authors.

Correll's vid presentations he presents as his own work, and though he gives no credit for foundational works he has drawn upon, clearly, he has not invented it.

I listened to his presentations after having read Bullinger's work and found it re-inforced the concepts.

I find it a fascinating study.  Clearly, something that is available to every human being on the planet.  It is no wonder to me that the Lord used His stars for the roadmap of salvation, that the topic might continually generate conversation and continue the hope of Messiah.

One interesting thing Correll did mention was a theory that prior to the flood, the view of the heavens would have been magnified due to the vapor canopy.  (?)  And that the tower of Babel affair was man's efforts to get closer to the stars to see them. (?)

I cannot imagine what the view of the Heavens would have been from the underside of a vapor canopy.  Surely, the stars must have been visible because they were given for signs and seasons.

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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Askakido on Wed May 10 2017, 00:01

Have been working today on the KJV of Psalms 19:1-4 and focusing on the pronouns, in what I call a Pronoun Study.  This in context of Week 1 of Mark Correll's Gospel in the Stars.


Psa 19:1 KJV .... 1a.) The heavens declare the glory of God; 1b.) and the firmament shewth his handywork.

I have underscored the subjective noun phrases (those of the subject of the verb) and of the next verse.

Psa 19:2 KJV 2a.) Day unto day uttereth speech, and 2b.) night unto night sheweth knowledge.  

We see then there are four such subjective noun phrases:
1. The heavens
2. The firmament
3. Day unto Day -- this can be seen as a "cycle", call it The Day-cycle.
4. Night unto night -- this too can be seen as a "cycle", call it The Night-cycle.

I will now en-Bolden the pronouns in the following verses:

Psa 19:3 KJV There is no speech nor language, where their (a.) voice is not heard.
Psa 19:4 KJV Their (b.) line is gone out through all the earth, and their (b.) words to the end of the world. In them (d.) hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

So now I ask of the grammar just which subjective noun phrases those four pronouns are referring to.  This is keeping the context within only these four verses, right in the place they are written.  Knowing first that 'their' is 3d person plural and that 'them' is also a 3 person plural and both need either a plural noun or in compound two nouns.

So, what does, "their voice" answer? Whose voice?

The same goes with "them", Who is 'them'?

And if you answer, The Stars, or the Signs, or the Zodiac, you will be amazed and astonished to discover that literally these four verses are not directly speaking of any of these.  But instead either:

Option A -- Their (a.) --> The heavens (because "heavens" is a plural.)
Option B -- Their (a.) --> The heavens (plural) and the firmament (singular) -- a plural noun in addition to a singular noun.
Option C -- Their (a.) --> the Day-cycle and the Night-cycle. 

Or perhaps the second and/or the third ones above.
The same goes to "their" (b.) and "them" (c.) and "them" (d.).

We now try each option on to see how it works (I have only used one of the four options here):

Psa 19:3 --- There is no speech nor language, where their (the Heavens') voice is not heard

And extending this down to verse 4 we would have it applied as:

Psa 19:1 KJV .... The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shewth his handywork.

Psa 19:2 KJV Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

Psa 19:3 --- There is no speech nor language, where their (the Heavens') voice is not heard

Psa 19:4 KJV Their (the Heavens') line is gone out through all the earth, and their (the Heavens') words to the end of the world. In them (the Heavens) hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

If we wish to see this "their" as 'the Stars' or 'the Signs' or even "the Zodiac" then we have to be aware that we are deriving that understanding based upon other derived understandings, a double derivative so to speak.  The implict is 'the Heavens' or 'the Firmament's'.  Not even the "Day-cycle and Night-cycle" option will work because of the "voice is" of the KJV English text.

I hope this illustration can aid one in further learning to deal with (and be aware of) the pronouns of a text in closer connection with the nouns used in that verse or that passage, before going out to a much wider context like the entire Bible.  If we forsake the grammar of a text we might as well also forsake the meaning of its words.

(Yes, a bit technical, I know.)

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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Askakido on Wed May 10 2017, 00:52

Jarhead wrote:
Askakido wrote:
Jarhead wrote:He drew on and gives credit to another author (Seiss, Gospel in the Stars, published a decade or so before his own work.) for having done in this regard.
Am wonder, He?  Bullinger's or Correll's work?

Apologizies for lack of clarity.

Bullinger credited a previous author (Gospel in the Stars) for work done in the topic of the Mazaroth.  I originally thought I recalled his mention of a woman, but by looking up the Gospel in the Stars, I found Seiss.

Bullinger and Seiss were 19th century authors.

Correll's vid presentations he presents as his own work, and though he gives no credit for foundational works he has drawn upon, clearly, he has not invented it.

I listened to his presentations after having read Bullinger's work and found it re-inforced the concepts.

I find it a fascinating study.  Clearly, something that is available to every human being on the planet.  It is no wonder to me that the Lord used His stars for the roadmap of salvation, that the topic might continually generate conversation and continue the hope of Messiah.

One interesting thing Correll did mention was a theory that prior to the flood, the view of the heavens would have been magnified due to the vapor canopy.  (?)  And that the tower of Babel affair was man's efforts to get closer to the stars to see them. (?)

I cannot imagine what the view of the Heavens would have been from the underside of a vapor canopy.  Surely, the stars must have been visible because they were given for signs and seasons.

Thank you for your clarification, I do think it was Seiss's Gospel of the Stars that I had read after reading Bullinger's; doing so because Bullinger had credited Seiss for his prior work.  Although that read was back in the late 1970s.

The Canopy Theory is an older Creationalist theory, which many of them have since set aside.  In some of the versions of theory it was thought by some that the canopy would act as some sort of electro-magnetic rectifier that would transduce the rectified EM down into air vibrations ala audio frequencies and the thought was then it would be literaly hearing the music of the heavens.  In the Hebrew version, in its options of various meanings of some of the Hebrew, one gets a option of seeing those words as "tones" and even "musical tones" instead of a mere "voice" or "speech" or "sound".  As it sets now, with some VLF recievers one can hear the chirps and whistles coming from the Heavens, especially the Ionosphere and Stratophere -- but it take a radio reciever to do that... not merely by the hearing of the ears.

As to The Tower of Babel Incident, as I call it, the entire thought or concept was to make a memorial to themselves to indicate where had been before they would later be scattered all over the place. 

Gen 11:4 KJV  And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name {BDB has it as also meaning "a memorial"}, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

The "lest" indicates to me not an effort to prevent it, but to delay until they had made this reputation, this memorial, so that later they could visit it and know where they all had started from -- at least in my view.  The Tower was to be as a Memorial Tower, unlike the City.

Without writing a 30 page thesis on it, to be short, this concept is embedded in the very Hebrew language word choices used there in that part of Genesis Eleven.  Some have maintained that the confusion of languaged was laid down was because they had ignored an earlier commandment of God to scatter around the land, region, continent, or the Planet.  But no such commadment is ever mentioned in the entire Bible.  Genesis Nine gives what I call The Law of Noah (seeminly a Oral Law, though it did get written down somehow) and there is no command to scatter across the land in that set of commandments.  The KJV has the reason as:

Gen 11:6-7 KJV  And the LORD said, "Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.  (7)  Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

So, the confusion of language then was a major restraint upon actually doing all that they could imagine to do.  And that as we well know huge amount of things that man can imagine doing, even faster than speed of light travel, time travel, humanly engineered humans, etc.

I too have found Bullinger's to be fascinating in its own right.  But only if one can get from 'the heavens' of Psalms 19:1-5 to 'the Stars' or "the Signs" or "the Zodiac" as inherent parts of the Heavens.  Yet, there is much more to the Heavens than just those three.  And applying them to the pronouns there requires, to me, that one should show how they do that second derivation from the "Heavens" to "The Stars, Signs, and/or Zodiac".  I actually had priorly taught that "Witness of the Stars" but decades ago.  But upon doing more pronoun and preposition studies of the English, Greek, and Hebrew, I found I had to set it aside to simmer on the back burner.

As to the Flood theories of the Creationalists, I tend to look at Walt Brown's Hydroplate Theory, which I find very fascinating -- especially in seeing some of the new discoveries about states of Water as found by Sandia National Labs, and the emerging concept that there seem to be water shells under the ice or crusts of several of the drawf planets and even Ceres.  It would help to see where the water was coming from when the fountains of the deep were broken up -- perhaps from such shells of water down below.

"the Mazaroth." I keep forgetting how to spell that.  Yikes!

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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Jarhead on Wed May 10 2017, 05:41

Askakido wrote:The Canopy Theory is an older Creationalist theory, which many of them have since set aside.  In some of the versions of theory it was thought by some that the canopy would act as some sort of electro-magnetic rectifier that would transduce the rectified EM down into air vibrations ala audio frequencies and the thought was then it would be literaly hearing the music of the heavens.  In the Hebrew version, in its options of various meanings of some of the Hebrew, one gets a option of seeing those words as "tones" and even "musical tones" instead of a mere "voice" or "speech" or "sound".  As it sets now, with some VLF recievers one can hear the chirps and whistles coming from the Heavens, especially the Ionosphere and Stratophere -- but it take a radio reciever to do that... not merely by the hearing of the ears.

I wouldn't doubt it, Ask.  We'll never know this side of Heaven just how much was lost in the Fall.

As to The Tower of Babel Incident, as I call it, the entire thought or concept was to make a memorial to themselves to indicate where had been before they would later be scattered all over the place. 

Gen 11:4 KJV  And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name {BDB has it as also meaning "a memorial"}, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

The "lest" indicates to me not an effort to prevent it, but to delay until they had made this reputation, this memorial, so that later they could visit it and know where they all had started from -- at least in my view.  The Tower was to be as a Memorial Tower, unlike the City.

Without writing a 30 page thesis on it, to be short, this concept is embedded in the very Hebrew language word choices used there in that part of Genesis Eleven.  Some have maintained that the confusion of languaged was laid down was because they had ignored an earlier commandment of God to scatter around the land, region, continent, or the Planet.  But no such commadment is ever mentioned in the entire Bible.  Genesis Nine gives what I call The Law of Noah (seeminly a Oral Law, though it did get written down somehow) and there is no command to scatter across the land in that set of commandments.  The KJV has the reason as:

Gen 11:6-7 KJV  And the LORD said, "Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.  (7)  Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

So, the confusion of language then was a major restraint upon actually doing all that they could imagine to do.  And that as we well know huge amount of things that man can imagine doing, even faster than speed of light travel, time travel, humanly engineered humans, etc.

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.

'and fill the earth'...Strong's 'mala' or 'male' ~ to fill or be full of ~ I can see why that's interpreted to move out and populate the whole earth.  Satan's plan is more easily accomplished if people are united in geography and/or language, eh?


I too have found Bullinger's to be fascinating in its own right.  But only if one can get from 'the heavens' of Psalms 19:1-5 to 'the Stars' or "the Signs" or "the Zodiac" as inherent parts of the Heavens.  Yet, there is much more to the Heavens than just those three.  And applying them to the pronouns there requires, to me, that one should show how they do that second derivation from the "Heavens" to "The Stars, Signs, and/or Zodiac".  I actually had priorly taught that "Witness of the Stars" but decades ago.  But upon doing more pronoun and preposition studies of the English, Greek, and Hebrew, I found I had to set it aside to simmer on the back burner.

Sometimes the strainer can be set to too fine a sift, Ask.  Being simple humans stuck here in an imperfect world, the Heavens represent something we haven't managed to corrupt.  The stars and the patterns in the constellations represent the Story of the Ages.  The Bible was written for mankind, with such flawed and simple understanding that we have in this realm.  I, for one, would rather just enjoy the Story in the Stars and realize the incomprehensible love God has for His creatures.

As to the Flood theories of the Creationalists, I tend to look at Walt Brown's Hydroplate Theory, which I find very fascinating -- especially in seeing some of the new discoveries about states of Water as found by Sandia National Labs, and the emerging concept that there seem to be water shells under the ice or crusts of several of the drawf planets and even Ceres.  It would help to see where the water was coming from when the fountains of the deep were broken up -- perhaps from such shells of water down below.

"the Mazaroth." I keep forgetting how to spell that.  Yikes!

Yeah, it's Mazzaroth ~ to me the double Z's just look creepy. 
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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Askakido on Wed May 10 2017, 18:38

Thanks for the double ZZ.. lol "the Mazzaroth".

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.

'and fill the earth'...Strong's 'mala' or 'male' ~ to fill or be full of ~ I can see why that's interpreted to move out and populate the whole earth.  Satan's plan is more easily accomplished if people are united in geography and/or language, eh?


Have a hard time seeing a "filling" having an expanded meaning into "scattering." 

I note that in Gen 1:18 where the verb "scattered" is used, the Hebrew there is יפץ Strong's H6327 "poots".  I tend to think if that command at Gen 9:1  was meant to mean "poots" it would have used "poots" or perhaps "poots" being added into the text as yet another action like, "... multply, fill, and scatter around the earth".. but it doesn't seem to have that addition in its text.

Gen 11:8 KJV "so (by this method) the LORD scattered them.. "   The method of getting them to scatter was to confound their language. But the reason for confounding their language was so that they could not do all they had imagined to do.   I don't see there was any reason to assert they had been commanded to scatter, only being commanded to multiply, and fill the earth.  I can't see either that the LORD will command one to do something that the LORD himself is going to bring about himself.  Their scattering was a consequence of the confounding language, and maybe an intended consequence as a secondary reason, perhaps, to hurry things along -- or perhaps to make it more difficult to get rapidly into intense and massive evil. 

My point was there was no commandment for them to scatter.  Only a commandment to multiply and fill the earth.

Just by eventual population growth pressure they would have gotten around to filling up the land/sea/and maybe even the air of Planet Earth.  If the command was (and it was) to multiply and fill the earth, then by obeying that commandment then the consequence would be an eventual scattering.

To me doing the thing as I had posed earlier, "... multply, fill, and scatter around the earth", would be much like Eve having added in... "neither shall you touch it.. " when she responded to the serpant.

(Trying to figure out how this thread's topic drifted away from the woman in Revelations Twelve. LOL)

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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Askakido on Wed May 10 2017, 18:51

Back on the issue of 'The Man Child" and that word " Huios ".

I went to Luke 3:23-ff and looked at the Greek for the word son there.  It is " huios".

Luk 3:23 KJV  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son [υιος - huios] of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,


Then all the way down to the need of Luke 3:38 this phrase 'the son of' is extended all the way down.  So we get even Adam being the son of God.  By extension that 'son' would be the Greek huios as well.  This entire family line from Jesus ('step-son' of Joseph) to Adam all would by extension that word, huios.  Needless to say, Jesus is not the only one called a huois in the Gospels or the New Testament.

"4:25 Huios always refers to Christ, not to the church"  Well, the church is never called a Son of any form at all in the Scriptures, so of course huios never refers to the church.

However, this assertion, "6:09 Never is the church referred to as Huios, only Christ is." is not true as we see from Luke -- although it is implict in the language there that all of these sons are a huios.  If one will accept that.

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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Askakido on Wed May 10 2017, 23:29

More on Rev 12:4-5 and the Greek

Rev 12:4-5 KJV  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.  (5)  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

(Rev 12:4 GNT-TR)  και η ουρα αυτου συρει το τριτον των αστερων του ουρανου και εβαλεν αυτους εις την γην και ο δρακων εστηκεν ενωπιον της γυναικος της μελλουσης τεκειν ινα οταν τεκη το τεκνον αυτης καταφαγη
   [teknon] --> noun - accusative, singluar, neuter.

(Rev 12:5 GNT-TR)  και ετεκεν υιον αρρενα ος μελλει ποιμαινειν παντα τα εθνη εν ραβδω σιδηρα και ηρπασθη το τεκνον αυτης προς τον θεον και τον θρονον αυτου
   [hion] --> noun - accusative, singular, masculine
   [arrena] --> adjective - accusative, singular, masculine.
   [teknon] --> noun - accusative, singular, neuter.

Strong's has this G730 as " ἄῤῥην (arrhen) / αρσεν (arsen)" whereas the Textus Receptus (TR) has it as αρρενα (arrena), the Byzantine (BYZ) has it as αρρενα (appena) , Westcott & Hort (WH) have it as αρσεν (arsen), the Apostolic Bible Polyglot (ABP) has it as αρρενα (arrena), -- just to show that there is some variance in spelling or word choice between the various Greek critical editions' text.  Though there seems to be no variance with the hion nor with the teknon as far as spelling or word choice is concerned between these four Greek critical editions' text for these two verses.  The Westcott & Hort is often called, of the "Minority Text."  The Strong's form is more of the "root" form's spelling.

Just to give one a small example of the application of the Matrix of Meaning, the syntax and the semantics.

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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Jarhead on Thu May 11 2017, 03:23

Ask, I certainly see the distinction here.  To put it simply, Mary gave birth to Yeshua the hios, her and Joseph's son.

The corporate Jewish mother (israel) gave birth to the corporate son, teknon.

Israel, too, could have given birth to the Huios, and it would have been grammatically correct in the Greek.

The thing to ponder is why teknon is used in this passage.  Huios would have left no doubt as to Whom it refers.  Teknon, on the other hand is the fuel for the 'corporate' application.

There is not one jot or tittle in Scripture that is meaningless.  The language is not sloppily applied.  Casual readers beware! 
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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

Post by Tryphosa on Thu May 11 2017, 07:58

Askakido wrote:Back on the issue of 'The Man Child" and that word " Huios ".

I went to Luke 3:23-ff and looked at the Greek for the word son there.  It is " huios".

Luk 3:23 KJV  And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son [υιος - huios] of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,


Then all the way down to the need of Luke 3:38 this phrase 'the son of' is extended all the way down.  So we get even Adam being the son of God.  By extension that 'son' would be the Greek huios as well.  This entire family line from Jesus ('step-son' of Joseph) to Adam all would by extension that word, huios.  Needless to say, Jesus is not the only one called a huois in the Gospels or the New Testament.

"4:25 Huios always refers to Christ, not to the church"  Well, the church is never called a Son of any form at all in the Scriptures, so of course huios never refers to the church.

However, this assertion, "6:09 Never is the church referred to as Huios, only Christ is." is not true as we see from Luke -- although it is implict in the language there that all of these sons are a huios.  If one will accept that.
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Re: Greek Study - Man Child

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