Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

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Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Sun Dec 25 2016, 23:45

First topic message reminder :

From Unsealed, 12-22-16 
Good info, good vids at the ends of the discussion as well!

Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

We've written extensively about what appears to be a literal fulfillment of the heavenly sign John saw in [url=http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev 12.1-5]Revelation 12:1-5[/url] (see here, here, and here), but I want to make clear to our readers that I am not setting the date of the rapture on September 23rd, 2017.  It could happen that day or it could happen before or perhaps shortly after - it's all up to God's perfect timing and plan.  However, what I am saying is that what happens on that day does appear to be the culmination of the heavenly sign John saw in [url=http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev 12.1-5]Revelation 12:1-5[/url].  I've tried time and time again to disprove what I and many other Christians are seeing, but I simply can't no matter how hard I try.  Here are some of the common arguments against this being the sign:



1. It isn't visible in Israel.


I'm not sure who first made the argument that the constellations in question (Virgo and Leo) will not be in the sky above Israel in Fall 2017, but it simply isn't true.  The entire sign will be in the western sky above Israel and Jerusalem on Saturday, September 23rd - and how fitting that the sign that may be heralding the end of the Church Age will be seen right where the Sun sets and the day ends.  One might argue that observers can't see the alignment because the Sun is up, but that's exactly what John saw - the woman is clothed with the Sun.  And, as a matter of fact, after the Sun sets, everything but the woman's crown will be visible in the night sky.


2. This sign isn't unique, it's happened before.


Some skeptics have pointed to similar alignments in 70 AD, 3 BC, and 3915 BC in an attempt to dismiss the significance of the September 23rd sign.  The glaring problem with their argument though is that these similar occurrences fail to meet every textual requirement given in Revelation 12.  The woman is not crowned by 12 stars during the alignments of 70 AD and 3 BC and there is not a nine month "pregnancy" during any of these other alignments.  For these reasons, among others, the September 2017 alignment is unique in all of human history.

(see link for complete article and videos)
http://www.unsealed.org/2016/12/arguments-against-revelation-12-sign.html
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Sat May 20 2017, 17:55

Jarhead wrote:Thanks, Tyo!

Just a preponderance of evidence to ignore this one!

Yep, but I had to check out what was said.  Interesting before the video was taken down, it had far more   than views.
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Jarhead on Sun May 21 2017, 06:30

Yeah, I watched this one the day they put it up on YTube.  They took it down quickly enough ~ it must have generated a TON of negative feedback.

Here's hoping that they will take the time to study the argument from reputable sources.

Here's how I feel about it:

There's just no time left to argue over the finer points of doctrine.  Quite a few folks who are positive on the Rev 12 Sign misunderstand end times doctrine and/or think the rapture will be selective, or even think this is the 2nd Coming.

None of these things are salvific.

Yeshua will be sorting it all out for us in the near future.

What remains is to reach the lost, prepare a legacy for those left behind and encourage one another as we see the day approaching.
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Mon May 22 2017, 15:54

Amen!!
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphena on Tue May 23 2017, 07:07

Looks like the second video has been removed as well. I did watch it yesterday.

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A Defense Of The Revelation 12 Sign : Part 4

Post by Tryphena on Tue May 23 2017, 07:49

New article on Unsealed ~ A Defense Of The Revelation 12 Sign : Part 4

http://www.unsealed.org/2017/05/a-defense-of-revelation-12-sign-part-4.html

Gary goes over several points, here is point 3...

...Third, he repeats an argument we've addressed before, which is that the woman is not clothed with the sun because the disc of the sun is not over her torso.  You can read our full response here.  He argues that suggesting the woman is clothed in sunlight is stretching the text.

My response: In English, "sun" and "sunlight" are two different words.  In biblical Greek they are the same word, helios.  There is no separate word for "sunlight" in Koine and therefore no stretching of the text is involved here.  Helios (the word used in Revelation 12:1) can be sunlight even when a definite article is included as shown in 2 Samuel 12:11.

Additionally, the sun is significantly smaller than Virgo and could never fully clothe any part of her body if only the disc is in view.  This becomes the ultimate subjective argument if a standard is applied that the text itself doesn't require.  He is arguing that the disc of the sun clothing her shoulder isn't sufficient, but why not?  It can only ever cover a very small part of her body regardless of where it is positioned:


In fact, the only inner part of her body ever clothed by the disc is a small portion of her lower left side and left hip as shown above (the red line being the sun's unchanging path every year).  It's obvious that the woman could never be clothed with the disc of the sun.  However, she can be clothed in sunlight.

One of our readers also pointed out that in the ancient world of John's day the shoulder contained the most important piece of clothing: the brooch.  People didn't have nice fitted pants and shirts.  Instead they wore clothing that was gathered together at the shoulder and held together by a brooch.  This is exactly where the sun is positioned in relation to Virgo on September 23rd and in proportion to the entire constellation, the disc of the sun is barely bigger than a brooch would be on a real person:



The Emperor Domitian pictured above was the ruler at the time John received his vision on Patmos.  Notice the circular brooch on his left shoulder just like the sun on Virgo's shoulder.  Here are some other images of brooches from the ancient world:

There's even a brooch on our own Statue of Liberty:
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Jarhead on Tue May 23 2017, 08:08

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Baby Bump Silhouette ~ Jupiter Extends Virgo

Post by Tryphosa on Thu May 25 2017, 12:07

One of the comments from Blood Red Moon (gotta give credit where credit is due) 
Concerning the baby bump, this is how I look at it. 


If you drew an outline of a woman's body before birth and then superimpose that outline on the same woman during her pregnancy you'll find that the baby in the woman's body extends outside the lines of that original outline (for a time). 
Some concern that Jupiter extends the womb of Virgo, I agree with BRM, this does occur!!
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Jarhead on Thu May 25 2017, 17:47

Big Baby!
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphena on Thu May 25 2017, 18:00

Very well illustrated - thank you Tyo.

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Prophecy Watchers Rev 12, Commentary:Hamrick

Post by Tryphosa on Wed May 31 2017, 20:49

Prophecy Watchers Revelation 12 Sign WITH Commentary from HamrickCE

Hammerich analizes the Stearman/Crone video:
The throne is discussed at about 33: and 38:30


May 30, 2017
(HamrickCE addresses concerns with scripture, plainly spoken)
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Mon Jun 26 2017, 09:23

Tryphena wrote:I'm just shooting from the hip, need to find scripture to confirm but weren't Adam & Eve clothed in light before the fall? It makes sense the Revelation 12 woman is clothed with the sun. 
And that the sun appears to be on or just above her shoulder. Think about it - our clothes hang from our shoulders. The "clothed with the sun" ouftit seems to be gathered or clasped at the shoulder, golden, shining fabric cascading, flowing down over her chest, pregnant tummy, hips, thighs, legs ... I can easily visualize this.

This is an excellent description, first mentioned by you here on March 2, thanks Tryph!

And here on May 6th!

http://www.unsealed.org/2017/05/the-celestial-c-section-defense-of.html


Last edited by Tryphosa on Mon Jun 26 2017, 09:26; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Mon Jun 26 2017, 09:24

Jarhead wrote:As mentioned in other posts ~ most everyone (leaders) missed the "signs" on the Lord's 1st coming, yet the calendar was there alone with the Bethlehem star and John the
Baptist!

Most folks had gotten wrapped up in 'religion' and works and even those who were watching we looking for something different.

I'm not so sure we are any smarter today.  We could be looking for something different?

God gave Daniel the information down to THE DAY.  I'm thinking He's done no less for the people called by His name today.

imo, the 'no one knows the day or the hour' mantra is used inappropriately.  I see it as for the last days of the tribulation period for not knowing the exact day of the Lord's return to earth ~ not the rapture.

The end of the church age, or rapture is our blessed hope ~ we will be delivered from the time of Jacob's Troubles.  I believe the Lord gave the exact time for Messiah's 1st Coming and specific timing for Jacob's Trouble.  How could He do less for His church?

Thing is ~ He didn't ~ He's given us signs in the sun, moon and stars; just like the first time. 

Regardless how this turns out we must remain faithful.  Just trust Him and continue to pray for guidance and insight.

Maranatha!
Wise words JH!
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RESPONSE TO CRITICS from Heavenly Sign 2017

Post by Tryphosa on Tue Jul 11 2017, 21:56

From Heavenly Sign 2017:
RESPONSE TO CRITICS AND THE CLIMACTIC END OF TIME



Published on Jul 10, 2017
He responds in love with great answers!
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

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