Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

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Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Sun Dec 25 2016, 23:45

First topic message reminder :

From Unsealed, 12-22-16 
Good info, good vids at the ends of the discussion as well!

Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

We've written extensively about what appears to be a literal fulfillment of the heavenly sign John saw in [url=http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev 12.1-5]Revelation 12:1-5[/url] (see here, here, and here), but I want to make clear to our readers that I am not setting the date of the rapture on September 23rd, 2017.  It could happen that day or it could happen before or perhaps shortly after - it's all up to God's perfect timing and plan.  However, what I am saying is that what happens on that day does appear to be the culmination of the heavenly sign John saw in [url=http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev 12.1-5]Revelation 12:1-5[/url].  I've tried time and time again to disprove what I and many other Christians are seeing, but I simply can't no matter how hard I try.  Here are some of the common arguments against this being the sign:



1. It isn't visible in Israel.


I'm not sure who first made the argument that the constellations in question (Virgo and Leo) will not be in the sky above Israel in Fall 2017, but it simply isn't true.  The entire sign will be in the western sky above Israel and Jerusalem on Saturday, September 23rd - and how fitting that the sign that may be heralding the end of the Church Age will be seen right where the Sun sets and the day ends.  One might argue that observers can't see the alignment because the Sun is up, but that's exactly what John saw - the woman is clothed with the Sun.  And, as a matter of fact, after the Sun sets, everything but the woman's crown will be visible in the night sky.


2. This sign isn't unique, it's happened before.


Some skeptics have pointed to similar alignments in 70 AD, 3 BC, and 3915 BC in an attempt to dismiss the significance of the September 23rd sign.  The glaring problem with their argument though is that these similar occurrences fail to meet every textual requirement given in Revelation 12.  The woman is not crowned by 12 stars during the alignments of 70 AD and 3 BC and there is not a nine month "pregnancy" during any of these other alignments.  For these reasons, among others, the September 2017 alignment is unique in all of human history.

(see link for complete article and videos)
http://www.unsealed.org/2016/12/arguments-against-revelation-12-sign.html
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Wed Apr 12 2017, 20:40

The Resurrection: The Only Supernatural Sign for Us Today
http://www.raptureready.com/2017/04/11/the-resurrection-the-only-supernatural-sign-for-us-today/

The resurrection is a cornerstone belief, not a sign for the end times.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. John 11:25


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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Thu Apr 20 2017, 23:24

Is the Zodiac in Bible Prophecy?
By Jackie Alnor


https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-prophecy/zodiac-bible-prophecy/






Trust in the Resurrection :: By Sean Gooding
http://www.raptureready.com/2017/04/27/trust-in-the-resurrection/


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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Wed May 03 2017, 22:45

Been reading about complaints for those who are "looking for signs". 
 
Remember it is the Jews that seek a sign.


Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.” Matthew 12:38

Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven. Matthew 16:1

“A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet[fn] Jonah.” And He left them and departed. Matthew 16:4
Others, testing Him, sought from Him a sign from heaven. Luke 11:16

And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, “This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. Luke 11:29
So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?” John 2:18

For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 1 Cor 1:22

Remember there was no Church yet when Jesus had His ministry, at that time there was only Jews and Gentiles.
Not sure many of us were looking for more signs, there are so many signs at this present time, one need not look further than todays headlines. 
Why was the Church was given the sign?
Maybe...
For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. Matthew 25:24
Or those seeking wisdom from the Lord are given and additional blessing as in the case of King Solomon, he asked for wisdom alone and the Lord was so pleased with his request He gave him great riches as well.

Then God said to Solomon: “Because this was in your heart, and you have not asked riches or wealth or honor or the life of your enemies, nor have you asked long life—but have asked wisdom and knowledge for yourself, that you may judge My people over whom I have made you king—
“wisdom and knowledge are granted to you; and I will give you riches and wealth and honor, such as none of the kings have had who were before you, nor shall any after you have the like.”
2 Chronicles 1:11-12


Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3


~Tyo
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphena on Thu May 04 2017, 06:39

So many are accusing that we are "looking for a sign" when we are in truth "looking at a sign."
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Jarhead on Thu May 04 2017, 07:08

As Tyo mentioned ~ 'the Jews seek a sign.'

The Lord is accommodating them.

Just my opinion here...

As church age believers none of us needed such a sign ~ but here it is, fulfilling scripture ~ and I believe it is intended for the unbelievers.  Perhaps as a 'lights flashing' signal that this age is about to close and they still have a choice as to which door by which they can exit.

Frankly, there will be no room for doubt after the harpazo as God will show Himself quite plainly and repetitively during Daniel's 70th Week.

As for it being a sign for believers, remember, the rapture has never been a salvation issue ~ folks will get snatched whether the believe in or have ever heard of the rapture.  And as church age believers, we've been especially blessed with the Holy Spirit for our faith without signs!

This is a sign for Israel.  Some will be saved prior to the 70th Week kick-off surely, but it will serve as clear evidence (think starting gun) to the 144,000 and others that God is rockin' and rollin' with Israel once again!
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphena on Thu May 04 2017, 07:57

I agree JH ^^^
Some don't understand & are lashing out without thought...

..."The modern church world is filled with people looking for a sign from Jesus"....
http://www.raptureready.com/2017/04/27/trust-in-the-resurrection/
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Thu May 04 2017, 21:15

Tryphena wrote:So many are accusing that we are "looking for a sign" when we are in truth "looking at a sign."
 I enjoyed looking at it a few weeks ago, of course it won't be complete or due until a few months yet, but did see the woman Virgo and Jupiter gyrating around in her belly!
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Thu May 04 2017, 21:33

Jarhead
"As church age believers none of us needed such a sign ~ but here it is, fulfilling scripture ~ and I believe it is intended for the unbelievers.  Perhaps as a 'lights flashing' signal that this age is about to close and they still have a choice as to which door by which they can exit." Jarhead


"lights flashing" 

Another one I read someplace was "two minute warning"


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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Jarhead on Fri May 05 2017, 06:54

(I was thinking of a nightclub at closing time...)
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphena on Fri May 05 2017, 07:06

Jarhead wrote:(I was thinking of a nightclub at closing time...)

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Jan Markell and Billy Crone

Post by Tryphosa on Sun May 14 2017, 08:53

Respect these two, but their arguments have been covered by Unsealed and others.

Markell, Crone ~ Why You Should NOT Set Dates For the Timing of the Rapture #PreTribulationRapture






Published on May 13, 2017
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Sun May 14 2017, 09:00

Jarhead wrote:(I was thinking of a nightclub at closing time...)
Bar tender has issued last call   ....
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Jarhead on Sun May 14 2017, 09:13

Jan Markel, as a Messianic Jew should have this argument nailed down.

Yeshua said 'no man knows the day or the hour...'

It was a WELL known Hebrew idiom for Rosh Hashanah, which stands alone as being the only festival of which no man knew the day or the hour as it could only be determined by the decree from the court declaring the the New Moon had been spotted.

The whole church has had it wrapped around the axle.

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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Sun May 14 2017, 19:31

Agreed JH.


The sign in September 2017 appears to be from the Lord, I believe it is.  But if it is not, we do have to wait long to find out, by the end of 2017 the Rev. 12 sign very well could be understood.
  
If one thought this was astrology, violates Scripture, date-setting, or etc., would not it be prudent to keep one's mouth shut?  It just seems unwise to criticize what could very well be from God.
  
Perhaps that is the reason many teachers are not speaking out. 


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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Askakido on Sun May 14 2017, 22:17

Tryphena wrote:In agreement Tyo & JH.
The clincher for me: John uses the same word (phrase in English) in Revelation 12: 5 as Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - "caught up" = (the Greek word) harpazō.


Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Revelation 12:5

Sometimes a wider context can bring in more understanding to a word usage, be it in the English, the Greek, or the Hebrew. etc.  Consider:

(2Co 12:2 KJV)  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up {αρπαγενταharpagenta} to the third heaven. 

(2Co 12:3 KJV)  And I knew such a man {in Christ?}, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

(2Co 12:4 KJV)  How that he [this 'such a man' {in Christ}] was caught up {ηρπασθη  herpasthhe.} into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.  

(Consider John hearing the voice of the Trumpets in that revelation, and then being told not to write it down.. had he writen it down it then would have been a violation, an unlawful act for John to have down.)   (Lately when I read this entire passage, I keep thinking about John.. what this 'such a man' which Paul speaks of really John?  And what are the implications if it was John? Paul is moot about it beyond just what he as given us in this epistle.)
 

These two men, one we are told was in Christ, the other we might assume that he was also in Christ'. 

The first man goes where? "... to the third heaven..."  We wonder where/when that is.

The second man goes where? "... into paradise... " We could wonder where/when that is.  Would the New Jerusalem be such a part of this Paradise?

Notice also Paul's remarks, "in the body or out of the body" and ask, just which body is Paul referring to when posing his questions?

There exists a physical body. 

(Genesis 2:7 -- physical body of dust first without a living soul just would just be a σωμα φυσικoν soma physikon – body physical.   and then in a bit the physical body is given a living soul (grk, psuche - psyche ) But alas I can only seem to find the Greek word φυσικην without an attached σωμα, -- nor can i find σωμα φυσικην soma phusikhen nor soma phusikon.  At least not with the tools I currently have or my current level of skill in using that.

There exists a psychical body. (1st Cor 15:44 -- σωμα ψυχικον -- soma psuchikon -- body psychical

There exists a spiritual body.   (1st Cor 15:44) -- σωμα πνευματικον -- soma pneumatikon -- body spiritual

There are three questions about these three types of body we might rhetorically ask..

1. ) Were these two man in their physical bodies or without their physical bodies (of course they had soul, psyche)?

2.) Were these two man in their psychical bodies or without their psychical bodies?

3.) Or were these two man in their spiritual body or without their spiritual bodies?

But then remember Paul's, "... whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;..."

Some think that Paul's soma psychikon is merely his way of stating or spelling the concept of a physical body with its living soul going on in it.  Other's more esoteric or mystical seem to claim that there are two different bodies there, a physical body and then an additional psychical body, and yet even a third, a spiritual body.

1.) φυσι-   the phusi or physi  "the fizz"
2.)
ψυχι-  the psuchi or psychi  "the sigh" as if an exhale of air.
3.) πνευμα-  the pneuma "the breath or breath-ing" or "the wind" or "the spirit" or an inhalation of air and then the exhale.  Breath In, hold it, now, Breath Out.

While looking at Rev 12, lets not forget that the Pentecost is coming around soon.

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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Askakido on Sun May 14 2017, 23:08

Tryphosa wrote:Jarhead
As church age believers none of us needed such a sign ~ but here it is, fulfilling scripture ~ and I believe it is intended for the unbelievers.  Perhaps as a 'lights flashing' signal that this age is about to close and they still have a choice as to which door by which they can exit.


"lights flashing" 

Another one I read someplace was "two minute warning"

Ah, but here is another sign for unbelievers.

(1Co 14:21 KJV)  In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
(1Co 14:22 KJV)  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: ...

And the context is about speaking in unknown tongues.  Which Paul in chapter twelve shows those to be by the Pneuma, not the Psyche (the Soul, of which the Mind is part of the Soul like the Brain is to the physical body.)  Speaking by the understanding is speaking by the Soul, not the Spirit.

Oh, and I realized that Paul's discourse on 'spiritual matters' includes chapter 12 through chapter 15. -- I have been limiting the context to just chapter 12 through 14.  Many of the things in chapter 15 are spiritual matters.. yet not necessarily gifts (not charismata nor dorea) unless I have missed them in chapter 15.

(1Co 15:45 KJV)  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made {not "formed" his physical body was formed.}  a living soul {ψυχην - psuchen- ζωσαν - zoosan}; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit {πνευμα -pneuma -  ζωοποιουν - zoopoioun}.

(1Co 15:46 KJV)  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual {πνευματικον - pneumatikon}, but that which is natural {ψυχικον - psuchikon}; and afterward that which is spiritual {πνευματικον - pneumatikon}.

It gets interesting to get beyond the rather limited Greek dictionary entries of Strong's into some that are much more exhaustive in the number of entries of the kione Greek of the Greek New Testament, same with the Greek Lexicons. 


Riddle me this:  If I shine a theater spot light on you down on your face, could one say that you were being clothed with the spot light?  Now, if I have the spot light behind you, but shining on your back, could it also be said that you were clothed with the spot light?

Saw little tiny very quick flashes around Jupiter last night and the night before -- but with my bad eyes, who knows what I was seeing or if the flashes were out there in just in me brain.  What I do know is that these were not flashes from the navigation lights of aircraft nor balloons.  LOL.

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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Jarhead on Mon May 15 2017, 06:42

Askakido wrote:
(Consider John hearing the voice of the Trumpets in that revelation, and then being told not to write it down.. had he writen it down it then would have been a violation, an unlawful act for John to have down.)   (Lately when I read this entire passage, I keep thinking about John.. what this 'such a man' which Paul speaks of really John?  And what are the implications if it was John? Paul is moot about it beyond just what he as given us in this epistle.)
 

These two men, one we are told was in Christ, the other we might assume that he was also in Christ'. 

The first man goes where? "... to the third heaven..."  We wonder where/when that is.

The second man goes where? "... into paradise... " We could wonder where/when that is.  Would the New Jerusalem be such a part of this Paradise?

Notice also Paul's remarks, "in the body or out of the body" and ask, just which body is Paul referring to when posing his questions?



While looking at Rev 12, lets not forget that the Pentecost is coming around soon.


Unless Paul was transported 'out of time' he would not have seen John ~ Paul died long before John was on Patmos and wrote Revelation.

These experiences are so far outside the norm of living that we have no way of knowing the finer details.  These men were privileged with these exotic happenings that they might help us in a small way comprehend the majesty of the Plan of God.  Perhaps it was also given to them as a balm for their sufferings.  How exactly does one describe the indescribable?

Yes, Pentecost.

I too, used to think there was a double fulfillment of Pentecost coming up.  However, now viewing Pentecost as the conception of the Church, I see it more likely that Rosh Hashannah as the delivery (birth) of the Body of Christ.
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Re: Jan Markell and Billy Crone

Post by Tryphena on Tue May 16 2017, 07:45

In his weekly commentary Greg Lauer has written an article on the JM & BC program...

5/15/2017 — From the "Heartbroken and Speechless" Department...
http://www.alittlestrength.com/index.htm

and over on Unsealed they've been discussing the interview in a thread...
http://unsealed.boards.net/thread/171/markell-billy-crone-flat-lying?page=1&scrollTo=1193
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Jarhead on Tue May 16 2017, 08:38

Doubters gonna' doubt...
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Tue May 16 2017, 22:54

Askakido wrote:

Riddle me this:  If I shine a theater spot light on you down on your face, could one say that you were being clothed with the spot light?  Now, if I have the spot light behind you, but shining on your back, could it also be said that you were clothed with the spot light?





I like Tryph's description...

It makes sense the Revelation 12 woman is clothed with the sun. And that the sun appears to be on or just above her shoulder. Think about it - our clothes hang from our shoulders. The "clothed with the sun" ouftit seems to be gathered or clasped at the shoulder, golden, brilliant raiment cascading, flowing down over her chest, pregnant tummy, hips, thighs, legs ... seems one could easily visualize this.
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Tue May 16 2017, 23:25

Askakido wrote:
Saw little tiny very quick flashes around Jupiter last night and the night before -- but with my bad eyes, who knows what I was seeing or if the flashes were out there in just in me brain.  What I do know is that these were not flashes from the navigation lights of aircraft nor balloons.  LOL.

Hopefully I will get a view this weekend, will check for flashes!
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Tryphosa on Tue May 16 2017, 23:56

Jarhead wrote:
Yes, Pentecost.

I too, used to think there was a double fulfillment of Pentecost coming up.  However, now viewing Pentecost as the conception of the Church, I see it more likely that Rosh Hashannah as the delivery (birth) of the Body of Christ.
I'm seeing this too. 
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Billy Crone: Revelation 12

Post by Tryphosa on Sat May 20 2017, 15:31

OK, one more but it made me do some searching...

Billy Crone: Revelation 12

http://www.rapturewatch.net/apps/videos/videos/show/19015487-billy-crone-revelation-12








Published on May 19, 2017
Will the rapture of the Church happen on a Jewish Feast Day? Some believe that this Rosh Hashanah will bring the rapture of the Church. The Internet has exploded with talk of signs in the heavens. What does the Bible say? Gary and Billy Crone examine the upcoming September 23rd target date.
------------


At the 10:15 Crone says (in reference to the throne in Rev 12:5)

She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Revelation 12:5

 "The church does not go to God's throne, the throne is reserved for the Son, Who sits at the right hand of the Father." Crone

So Crone is indicating the Child is Jesus and not the church because the church can not go to the Father's throne.
Found this verse:
“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Revelation 3:21


From Steve Kerper, Anakypto Afterthoughts
https://stevekerp.wordpress.com/

Yes, as King of Kings, Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron. But according to Rev. 2:26, so will overcomers. The distinction attempted between Jesus’ ruling ALL the nations, and us as His underlings ruling just some, is rebutted by the text. He will rule over the nations with a rod of iron, and He gives that exact same promise to overcomers. Again, just read the text. Jesus was given power and He gives what He received – “…as I also have received from My Father.” He gives us exactly what the Father gave Him.

(Having trouble posting video that was found on Rapture Watch)
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Re: Arguments Against The Revelation 12 Sign

Post by Jarhead on Sat May 20 2017, 17:40

Thanks, Tyo!

Just a preponderance of evidence to ignore this one!
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Prophecy Watchers 5-20-17 | BILLY CRONE - REV 12

Post by Tryphosa on Sat May 20 2017, 17:51

Found the video again, in this video the statement (mentioned above) is made about the 10:30 mark.

Prophecy Watchers May 20 2017 | Gary Stearman 05/20/2017 | BILLY CRONE - REVELATION 12



(video was not uploaded by Prophecy Watchers, for some reason it was taken down, found this same one uploaded by someone else)
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